Aaron Burr: Separating Fact from Hamilton's Fiction

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:00:39</time>
welcome to Talk With History.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:00:42</time>
I'm your host Scott, here with my wife and historian Jen.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Hello.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:00:46</time>
On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired World Travels

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YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations

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with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Now tonight, as you can see, we finally have another guest back

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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on, first Guest of the New Year.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Today we are joined by Sean Curtis, a colleague of Jen's,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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teacher and card carrying member of the Erin Burr Association.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Welcome, Sean

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Hello.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Thank you for having me.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Absolutely happy to have you.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Now, before we get into chatting with Sean, I do want to ask for anybody

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<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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All they're talking about is aliens and Nazis, right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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So you've

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yeah, we're gonna, we can bring history back to the History channel

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if they ever want to have a song.

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So,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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all right, now our.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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They've burned out all their

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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That's right, that's right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:55</time>
Now our guest tonight is Sean Curtis, as I said earlier, and Sean

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:00</time>
is a 24 year veteran social studies teacher with a master's in education.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:05</time>
He's been a teacher in Wyoming, New Jersey, Ohio, and Indiana, and has

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:09</time>
taught a variety of subjects that have included economics, government, and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:13</time>
yes, our favorite history, . Shawn has studied culture all over the world

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<time>00:02:18</time>
from working in a Russian orphanage, helping construct a school in Guatemala

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to leading students to Greece, Italy, France, and this summer to Eastern Europe.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:27</time>
Two summers ago, he even received a grant from the Eli Lilly Foundation to

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:31</time>
Travel Route 66 for two weeks to record American culture in a pandemic world.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:38</time>
That's such a cool opportunity Now, Sean's true historical passion is

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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the stories of the underdog and those that history has wounded.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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His classroom is framed with pictures of figures like Jack Johnson,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Josh Gibson, and yes, Aaron Burr.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Sean has been a card carrying member of the Aaron Burr Association ever since

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:58</time>
he first discovered the history of Aaron Burr at the University of Wyoming, but

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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way back in the nineties, and he has been working a clear burr's name ever since.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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So, welcome and thank you so much for joining us tonight, Sean.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Yes, thank

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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century, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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That's right, tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:03:14</time>
some stuff I didn't cover, and how you discovered Aaron Burr and , got

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:03:18</time>
hooked on that underdog history

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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sure.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Let me clear up one historical mistruth right away.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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All right.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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in the Aaron Bur Association, our dues are due on Aaron Burr's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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birthday, which is February 6th.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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And this year I did not send them in on time.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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I

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Oh, no.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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So the check is getting to the people.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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So right now, be honest, I'm between my cards,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Okay.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:03:45</time>
All right,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Stuart, if you're listening, they're on their way.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:03:48</time>
And I will be an Aaron Burr Berg card caring member again

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:03:50</time>
great, a great question.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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So, when I went to the University of Wyoming in education and had to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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take quite a few history classes and I took, actually took an extra year.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:04:00</time>
One of the classes I took was a class with Dr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:04:03</time>
Frank Van Nas called History of the US West, which I've had the opportunity to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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teach at, at, at, at high school as well.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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So it's been fun.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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But the thing that stands out the most in my mind from that semester was he was

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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talking about the treason trial of Aaron Burr and how Aaron Burr was accused by

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Jefferson of trying to secede the western half of the United States from the east.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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A lightning moment I thought.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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I've never heard this in any history class I've ever been in.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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I, we all took US history, we took US history in whatever grades

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:04:33</time>
we had to take at eighth grade.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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11th grade took so many history classes in college for US history

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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cuz you take the basic US history and then the social history.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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And never once did I hear anything about Aaron Burr other than

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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he killed Alexander Hamilton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Of course the famous milk ad, with the peanut butter and the Aaron

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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With the peanut butter.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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And that was the Vienna wood dancing D one of my all-time favorites.

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And now let's make that random call with today's $10,000 question.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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It's a tough one.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
<time>00:05:13</time>
Who shot Alexander Hamilton in that famous duel?

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All right, let's go to the phones and see who's out there.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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Hello, hello for $10,000.

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Who?

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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Sh.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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Excuse me.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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Hang on.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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Lemme mom, I'm afraid your time is almost done.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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I'm sorry.

<cite>Commercial:</cite>
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Maybe next time

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got.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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That's how people knew that

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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before

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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It's, yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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It's all people ever talked about was all Aaron Burr was, was the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:05:57</time>
killer of Alexander Hamilton.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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. Yep.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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I thought, oh my gosh, this guy has a whole life beyond the Hamilton

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:05</time>
story, where he was embroiled in these politics in the west and arrested and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:10</time>
taken to a treason trial on horseback with John Marshall presiding and his

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:16</time>
lawyer was Washington Irving and Luther Martin and in Henry Clay as a lawyer.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:21</time>
And he was embroiled into stuff with Andrew Jackson and, and William Henry

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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Harrison, and so many great names in American history that were all tied

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:30</time>
to this trial that he was a part of.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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And gosh, I've, this is so new, this history that they've just left him out.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:37</time>
It's settled law that Aaron Burr was a villain.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
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He killed Hamilton and that was it.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:42</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:43</time>
weirdly enough I was walking around campus one day and the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:47</time>
library was having a book sale.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:50</time>
and I went in Cuz oh Books, history . And they had a 25

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:06:55</time>
cent copy of Gore Dolls Burr,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:00</time>
just sitting on the table that no one was buying.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:02</time>
Pick it up and read it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:03</time>
And I was just, I was hooked.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:06</time>
All the things that Burr did and his ideologies, how he tried to get women

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:11</time>
the right to vote and fought for win's rights, and fought to free the slaves

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:15</time>
Mannu mission in New York and brought water to the people of New York.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:18</time>
He's the inventor of Chase Manhattan Bank, where he brought freshwater

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:22</time>
to people, the cure cholera, that Hamilton and him were law partners and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:26</time>
tried the first murder trial together in New York and that they, hung out.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:30</time>
And all this story upon story within, and I know it's historical

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:34</time>
fiction, but I was, this is amazing.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:37</time>
And so what else can I do to find more about this?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:39</time>
And so I, it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:41</time>
The early days of the internet back then, and looked up stuff.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:45</time>
And they told me that there was a professor from American University in

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:49</time>
Washington DC named Samuel Engel Burr, who had taught long ago a class on Aaron Burr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:56</time>
And Kim, the founder of the movement.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:07:58</time>
He had formed the Aaron Bur Association.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:00</time>
And I said, gosh, where can I find this guy's work?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:03</time>
And so I looked and they said, you can find this work

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:06</time>
at the University of Wyoming.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:09</time>
What?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:10</time>
And so I went in the library and sure enough, weird coincidence, Sam

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:14</time>
Lee bur the founder of the Aaron Bur Association, had given his entire

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:17</time>
Aaron Bur library to whatever professor probably Phil Roberts is what people said.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:23</time>
Dr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:23</time>
Roberts, who you know well known at University of Wyoming to give

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:27</time>
him his library as colleagues.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:29</time>
And so down in the basement of Coli at the University of Wyoming

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:33</time>
is an entire Aaron Bur library.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:35</time>
Dossier is on Aaron Burr from Napoleon, his lecture notes from

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:39</time>
his class, just on and on and on.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:41</time>
And I, I, I stayed down there and that they, picked up a book called

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:46</time>
fatal Friendship by Arnold Roo, all about kind of the, the love hate

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:50</time>
relationship between Hamilton and Burr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:53</time>
And wrote Arnold Roo, who was still alive at the time and said, you're

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:57</time>
a member of the Bur Association.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:08:59</time>
How do I become a member of the Bur Association?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:09:02</time>
And he gave me their, and I've been a member ever since

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:07</time>
Quite a history for yourself in Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:10</time>
In becoming involved in that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:11</time>
Now if I, if I'm gonna step back a little bit, cuz I'm definitely gonna

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:15</time>
dive down some of those rabbit holes with you here in, in just a little bit.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:18</time>
Yes.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:18</time>
I wanna do that too.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:19</time>
But one of the things that I, I wanna touch on really quickly

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:22</time>
first is the video, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:24</time>
So , we just posted our video about the, , the grave site

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:27</time>
of the female stranger, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:29</time>
In, in Alexandria.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:30</time>
Yes.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:31</time>
And one of it sounds like one of the running theories that this grave

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:36</time>
site is potentially the grave site of Aaron Burr's, daughter Theodosia burr.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:40</time>
. Alston.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:41</time>
Now.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:41</time>
. For folks who have watched the video, and if you're watching this video or

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:44</time>
listening to the podcast after the fact, I encourage you to go watch the video.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:48</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:48</time>
and I'm curious if that's a, a running theory that that's discussed in, in

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:53</time>
the Aaron Bur association's circles.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:55</time>
Cuz I think Yeah, I think you were one of the earlier comments

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:58</time>
that we saw on the on the video.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:00</time>
So we would probably be in disagreement with it,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:05</time>
Okay.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:06</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:06</time>
Cuz

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:06</time>
you probably don't give it any

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:07</time>
credence probably,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:09</time>
heard all kinds of stuff that it's almost like an Anastasia type deal where

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:13</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:14</time>
Oh,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:14</time>
forward afterwards and pretending to be theodosia.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:16</time>
Cuz she was, she was quite the celebrity of the time.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:20</time>
As far as women went, she was outspoken.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:24</time>
She was well learned.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:26</time>
She, they said she had an IQ of 175,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:30</time>
Whoa.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:30</time>
Wow.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:31</time>
yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:32</time>
, right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:32</time>
And she, Erin, and that, that was purposeful because Burr was such

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:37</time>
a huge supporter of women's rights and he hadn't been necessarily

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:40</time>
a supporter of women's right.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:42</time>
Early on in his life at Princeton when he was young and in the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:45</time>
military where he was drifting.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:47</time>
But once he met her mother, Theodosia Theodosia was a big fan of Mary Wall.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:52</time>
Stone Craft.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:53</time>
The early feminist writer, Mary Shelly's mom, and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:56</time>
Mary Shelly's mom.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:57</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:58</time>
he read it and absorbed it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:10:59</time>
And when they had, they actually had four kids.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:02</time>
Thei had kids from her first marriage with George Prevo.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:05</time>
She was much older than her.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:07</time>
They had four kids together.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:08</time>
Two of them died as Stillbirths.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:10</time>
Their daughter Sally died when she was two, and Theodosia was the only child to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:14</time>
live on, and she was his pride and joy.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:17</time>
And so one of the things he'll write and write to Theodosia his wife, and then I'll

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:22</time>
write a lot to Theodosia, his daughter.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:24</time>
Was that through them, they taught him what he didn't know before and what

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:30</time>
wasn't popular at the time that women.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:33</time>
Are powerful, that women can think that women have an equality that they deserve.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:38</time>
And so he was gonna prove it through her.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:39</time>
So they raised her to speak Greek, Latin, French language upon language

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:43</time>
upon language study, mass study

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:45</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:45</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:46</time>
could debate anything at any party with anybody.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:49</time>
And so she was popular and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:51</time>
Yeah,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:52</time>
of a huge figure of the day.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:53</time>
And so, yeah, like I said, it's almost an Anastasia type thing where people were

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:11:57</time>
claiming to be her, but the letters that they wrote to each other were legendary.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:05</time>
Matthew Davis, his biographer kept all i the letters that he didn't burn when

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:10</time>
he was editing burr's life is that, this love story between father and daughter.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:15</time>
And HW Brands wrote a really good book called The Heartbreak of Aaron Burr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:21</time>
Which is all about that relationship between him and Theo.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:25</time>
And if it was her in that grave and she lived two years beyond her death there's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:32</time>
no correspondence between the two of them.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:35</time>
And he

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:36</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:36</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:36</time>
Why would she not talk to her

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:38</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:38</time>
Why would she not talk to him?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:39</time>
Why would she not write to her husband who was also devastated and basically

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:43</time>
led to his death from misery sickness?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:12:47</time>
So

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:48</time>
I think , you're a lot like Jen when it comes to history.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:50</time>
, you're not gonna sugarcoat it.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:52</time>
, this is the fact, this is.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:54</time>
, it seems very improbable.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:55</time>
. And, and I think even Jen talks through that in the video.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
a little bit.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
You talk through

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:59</time>
of like This doesn't make sense that it would be her Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:02</time>
Because of these reasons and those

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:03</time>
Yeah, and showing up with a new husband and I, I was reading that

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:07</time>
some people thought it was Napoleon in disguise dressed like a woman that he'd

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:11</time>
escaped, and that's before he went back

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:14</time>
stay

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:14</time>
recapture France.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:15</time>
And there's just a whole lot of different people that it might've been, but it

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:20</time>
just, for us, it, I would, I would assume, but I don't wanna speak for the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:22</time>
whole Aaron Bur association, but it, it just, from the biographies and the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:26</time>
readings, there's just no correspondence.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:28</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:29</time>
So one of the questions I had for you, Sean was one of these

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:34</time>
portraits of Theodosia and there's a couple portraits of her.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:39</time>
They ended up at Yale and even though Burr is associated with

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:44</time>
Princeton, because and he's buried at Princeton, her portraits are at Yale.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:50</time>
And why are her portraits at Yale?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:53</time>
So it's a, it's a family history.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:55</time>
The burs, the family burr is from Connecticut.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:13:58</time>
They're from Fairfield, Connecticut with the first Burr, who is j

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:02</time>
Huber came over from England.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:04</time>
They centered themselves as ministers and reverends in Connecticut.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:08</time>
They were very well-to-do Reverend Family, the burs, and they married

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:12</time>
into other Reverend families.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:13</time>
So, for example, Aaron Burr's Grandpa was Jonathan Edwards, the founder of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
The Great Awakening as a preacher.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:20</time>
On his mother's side.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:21</time>
So the Edwards married the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:23</time>
Wow.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:24</time>
and so the Yale archives is all the Burr family papers from all the births

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:30</time>
in Connecticut and Aaron Burr's stuff

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:33</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:34</time>
mixed in because it was passed down to cousins and then

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:38</time>
the cousins donated to Yale.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:41</time>
Burr's family were the founders of Princeton with Jonathan

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:45</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:46</time>
So his dad, Aaron Burr Sr, was one of the founding fathers of Princeton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:50</time>
And Burr went there and he is buried there and his father's buried there.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:14:53</time>
His mother buried nearby,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:55</time>
That's, that's one of the things that I appreciate about having

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:59</time>
subject matter experts like yourself on, on history topics like this.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:02</time>
Because to your point we opened up saying like, yeah, everybody knows

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:06</time>
Burr for . basically two things.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:08</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:08</time>
Shooting Hamilton and possibly, all, all this bad stuff he was accused of later.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:12</time>
But there's, there's so many interesting things, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:15</time>
As someone who is around in such a pi, , the core pivotal era mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
, of the founding of this country.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:21</time>
It's, now that you talk about it, I'm not surprised that his family founded.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:26</time>
An institution here.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:28</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:28</time>
And was, was, working, and worked with, numerous famous other historical figures.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:34</time>
But again, when it comes down to high school history, you get, you don't

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:39</time>
get to get into the weeds like that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:41</time>
You get the, yep.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:42</time>
Here's the two sentences about the third vice president of the United States.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:46</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:46</time>
. And that's most, that's mostly it, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:49</time>
We don't get

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:15:49</time>
Well, and even some of the books just don't even research at all.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
They use lazy research because for them, Aaron Burr's, life of Settled History.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:15:58</time>
I have a AP textbook we used in ap.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:01</time>
His AP u s history.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:03</time>
that said Aaron Burr was guilty of Seceding the West when John

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:07</time>
Marshall found him not guilty and seven courts found him not guilty.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:11</time>
But the book says he was guilty cuz it's lazy

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:14</time>
settled history, I like that term.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:16</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:17</time>
Settled history is like what people just assume Aaron Burr was a villain

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
right.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:22</time>
because like it's, it's just settled.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:24</time>
Like that's who he is and that's, and it, you

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:26</time>
know,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:27</time>
my favorite Aaron Sorkin line in the social network is

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:30</time>
Every creation myth needs a devil.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
Hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
And Aaron burs that devil.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:33</time>
yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:34</time>
Got you.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:34</time>
Sure.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:35</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:36</time>
So, so what's the biggest misconception then about Burr if

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:39</time>
you know that he wasn't a devil?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:40</time>
That he's not this like lackadaisical guy like in Hamilton who doesn't pick

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:45</time>
a side and is cowardice in a way.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:47</time>
Like that's not who he is.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:50</time>
Well.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:50</time>
So with that Aaron Burr would write about politics as a game.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:55</time>
He wrote, it's a game for fun, for profit.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:57</time>
He saw the sport in it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:16:59</time>
He saw what he could do with it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:01</time>
He saw that he could maneuver through it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:03</time>
And so, that's not really off character for him as much as it is.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:06</time>
I, what I like about the musical is for the first time, somebody kind of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:11</time>
little bit put some empathy into him, like he's not just this cold calculating

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:16</time>
person who shot Alexander Hamilton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:18</time>
He is got feelings.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:19</time>
He loves his daughter, he loves the country.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:23</time>
But his life was set for him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:26</time>
If you're gonna talk about like early privilege in America, his life was

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:29</time>
created for him and he hated it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:31</time>
He didn't want the life for him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:33</time>
They wanted him to be a minister.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:35</time>
So they sent him to Princeton to train him to be a minister.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:38</time>
He ran away from home quite frequently.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:41</time>
I mean his, well, when he was young.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:43</time>
So his mom and dad both died when he was a kid and his sister Sally.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:48</time>
And then they moved in with Jonathan Edwards and his wife Jonathan Edwards, of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:52</time>
course being very stern sinners from the hands of an angry God minister, right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:17:56</time>
And then they died.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
Fire.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
Fire and brimstone.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:00</time>
Yeah, Firestone, find God and before it's too late, and then they died.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:05</time>
And so Aaron Burr and his sister were left basically as orphans as little kids.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:10</time>
And they moved in with his uncle in Connecticut, who was also,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:14</time>
they pushing the Reverend thing.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:16</time>
And Aaron Burr ran away from home again, again and again, again.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:18</time>
He was gonna be a lawyer and he became like one of the best

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:21</time>
lawyers as far as people could see.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:26</time>
He was ki like I said, aimless in where he wanted to be and what he wanted to do.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:30</time>
And whereas Hamilton obviously was more focused, but it allowed, I think

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:35</time>
if you read the books, Aaron Burr, to be friendlier more of somebody

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:39</time>
you'd want to hang out with, less of an ideologue than Hamilton was.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:44</time>
I think it was one of the writers, I think it was either Arnold Roo

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:47</time>
or Thomas Fleming who said that Hamilton was com very combative.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:52</time>
He was his way or no way.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:53</time>
And if you crossed him, you were finished.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:56</time>
Burr was just like, let's hang out.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:18:58</time>
Let's talk politics, let's play chess, let's have parties.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:01</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:01</time>
so I don't think that was too far off in the play.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:04</time>
But the idea that he didn't love the country and want the same

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:09</time>
things, what he did, he fought, he's a revolutionary soldier.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:13</time>
He is famous for the Battle of Quebec, where he carried General Montgomery

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:17</time>
out of the battlefield on his back.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:19</time>
When General Montgomery was shot, which drew his attention to George Washington,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:23</time>
who made him one of his aides, which

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:26</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:27</time>
Burr was not the best military aid.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:29</time>
That's where he about Hamilton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:30</time>
He would read George Washington's mail.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:33</time>
He's famous in some circles, in some theories that he would pass a

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:37</time>
rumor that George Washington should be called his Royal Pear Shapeness.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:41</time>
Cause tiny head big,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:42</time>
Oh, wow.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:44</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:19:45</time>
his,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:47</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:48</time>
So, so you, yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:50</time>
So, so you mentioned some of the accuracies in inaccuracies

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:53</time>
of of Hamilton, like when, when Hamilton first came out, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:57</time>
We, we have to, let's just broach the Hamilton topic now,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:00</time>
the play and all that stuff.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:01</time>
Like, I have the book when, when that first came out,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:03</time>
when it first hit the scene.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:04</time>
Like h how did, how did the whole you your what?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:08</time>
What'd you call yourself earlier before we were on air?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:10</time>
The, the Burr rights.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:11</time>
The bur

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:11</time>
rights.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:11</time>
Is that, how did the Bur Right community react to, to Hamilton?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:15</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:15</time>
And just kind of like, what was a little bit of a vilification, of Aaron Burr.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:19</time>
It's, it twofold,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:20</time>
right?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:20</time>
Because Aaron Burr is telling the story, so it's cool that he gets to

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:24</time>
narrate a whole story, but then it is ki you're not telling a complete

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:28</time>
story.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:29</time>
There's a, there's a lot of omission in it

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:32</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
from my thought, I just, I would say that, and again, not speaking for

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:38</time>
everybody, but just knowing what I know and knowing kind of the, the pain of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:44</time>
people who support Aaron Burr, it's a long history of trying to fight against the.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:51</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:52</time>
Yeah,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:52</time>
lot of people still who have a very vested interest in keeping Aaron Burr

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:57</time>
from a positive view in the history books.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:20:59</time>
And it's in the lecture notes of Samuel Burr, he writes that he wrote a book

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:03</time>
about Theodosia and Burr's relationship.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:06</time>
And the publisher told him if this was anti bur I'd publish it, but

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:09</time>
it's pro-Burr so I can't publish it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:11</time>
Cuz he's seen as a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:12</time>
interesting.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:13</time>
Oh

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:13</time>
And I've faced off against people before who tell me that I'm a traitor.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:18</time>
That I support a traitor, that I can't possibly love this country

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:23</time>
because my idol is a traitor.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:25</time>
And again, he was declared not guilty of treason, but,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:29</time>
and there was never any proof.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:30</time>
And John Marshall declared it, but they don't understand, what led to that duel.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:35</time>
And because there's so little information and for B for Bird actually comes back

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:39</time>
to theodosia, the, the sadness of it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:43</time>
is, he had documents, he had papers, he had records of the times of all

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:48</time>
these people he associated with.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:50</time>
But when he fled to Europe after the treason trial, he left it with her and she

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:55</time>
was bringing it back to him on the ship.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:21:58</time>
And

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:59</time>
the Patriot

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:59</time>
that was lost.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:00</time>
Oh,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:01</time>
went with it, like all these

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:03</time>
okay.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:04</time>
And so what's left is his private journal, which was edited

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:08</time>
by Matthew Davis and any letters he had in correspondence he had after.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:13</time>
And then there's some things of letters that they've gathered from

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:16</time>
other people, like he was friends with like Jeremy Bentham and England

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:21</time>
and Andrew Jackson and all these people that have letters from him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:25</time>
But he, he can't defend himself.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:27</time>
And so he became a victim of people re-editing history to pigeonhole him

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:34</time>
into the villain and he can't fight back.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:36</time>
And so,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:37</time>
Well, okay, so let's hit on those two things.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:40</time>
What do people not know about the dual, like the dual with Alexander Hamilton?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:45</time>
In the musical.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:47</time>
They make it about the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:48</time>
election, but it wasn't about the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:50</time>
like, if people were critical of it, they would say,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:53</time>
wait, it took four years for his anger to boil over to a dual.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:22:58</time>
Cause they didn't shoot till 1804 and the election was 1800.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:02</time>
So that's one of the things that I, I liked the music, but that omission in

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:08</time>
itself really changes the focus of it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:10</time>
Cuz again, it might come back to Theodosia and people will disagree

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:13</time>
with this or agree with that.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:14</time>
It's a theory.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:15</time>
Aaron Burr put up with a lot of criticism in his life, like

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:18</time>
a lot, especially in 1800.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:20</time>
Thomas Jefferson was very good at having people installed in Democratic

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:26</time>
Republican post offices, newspaper offices that would just smear, read mail,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:32</time>
publish mail, and Burr took a a on the chin in that and didn't go to War's.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:39</time>
Jefferson, he took on his vice president role and Jefferson was really cold to him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:44</time>
And there's classic fights between the two of them, like where Jefferson

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:47</time>
tried to impeach Justice Chase because he was Federalist and Burr

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:51</time>
as president of the Senate stood in his way and said, we can't turn this

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:54</time>
chamber into a political monster.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:23:57</time>
Yeah, so that, that in the musical I'm like, there's a

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:00</time>
four year gap people come on.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:01</time>
It's

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:02</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:02</time>
. Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:03</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:03</time>
They're not fighting about the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:04</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:05</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:05</time>
And Burr stopped famously, and this is one thing people probably don't know,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:09</time>
is when the Maria Reynolds affair broke, which I was actually really happy, was

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:14</time>
in the play, cuz for a very long time, I don't think Hamiltonians were very

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:18</time>
pleased with the Maria Reynolds affair.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:20</time>
I remember asking about it once at the Grange Hamilton's house, and it was not

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:24</time>
received well by the tour guide . And that was back in like the early nineties.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:28</time>
James Monroe was responsible for publishing that story or so

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:34</time>
Hamilton thought and Hamilton challenged him to a duel.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:38</time>
So Hamilton and Monroe almost went to Duel and Burr was the one

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:41</time>
who stood in the way and stopped it and negotiated the dual out.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:44</time>
So they didn't fight and Burr did that a lot.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:47</time>
Like Hamilton would lose his temper, Burr would guide his temper

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:51</time>
away cuz they were law partners.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:53</time>
They lived down the street when they lived in lower Manhattan.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:24:57</time>
The question has always been what would break Aaron Burr to the point where he'd

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:02</time>
be willing to go to Wee Hawk and, and have pistols cuz he wasn't a good shot.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:07</time>
People were, well, he was well known as big a bad shot.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:10</time>
He was well known as being someone who didn't play things

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:13</time>
based on anger and honor.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:15</time>
Like he took a lot of names, he took a lot of abuse and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:18</time>
didn't declare duals on people.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:19</time>
Hamilton had been involved in almost 11 duals or close

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:23</time>
duals And obviously his son.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:26</time>
This is a family streak,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:28</time>
pistols.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:28</time>
were his brother-in-law's.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:29</time>
Angelica's husband John Church, who also wasn't a lot of duals.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:34</time>
And so, The one theory that people have and that people have arrived at is the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:40</time>
thing that would break Aaron Burr is if you took down his relationship with

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:45</time>
Theodosia because he loved her more than life and she with the death of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:49</time>
her mom and his wife was his hostess.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:51</time>
Like, just like Thomas Jefferson and his daughter, she was his

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:54</time>
host this after his wife died.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:55</time>
While we know is that Hamilton wrote in a newspaper, Wal Burr was running

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:25:59</time>
for governor of New York and willingly Burr changes the Federalist Party cuz

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:03</time>
the Democrat Republicans had abandoned him and that was seen as opportunism.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:08</time>
And Hamilton wasn't pleased because he's head of the Federalist Party or was,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:13</time>
and he got hold of his media buddies and he wrote in the paper and spread a

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:18</time>
rumor that said, if you think Burr is bad, I have an even worse opinion and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:24</time>
I know something even worse about him, or more despicable he says about him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:27</time>
And so, Goral and other people speculate that what that was was he was accusing

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:33</time>
Aaron Burr of incest with Theodosia.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:35</time>
He would, in private letters, when they would cipher, he would often write, cuz

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:41</time>
he was clever, Hamilton was very clever.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:43</time>
He would write Greek character names for like Jefferson and like having two faces.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:50</time>
And he'd write these names for people based on Greek mythology.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:54</time>
And with Burr it was close to, he would sometimes write it according

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:26:57</time>
to some theories that Burr was his character in Greek mythology who

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:01</time>
was sleeping with his own family.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:04</time>
And so,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:04</time>
And that was enough to push Burr over the edge?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:07</time>
wrote him a letter and he said, Hey, what is this

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:11</time>
opinion that you have of me?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:13</time>
And that's all we know.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:13</time>
Like, we don't know what it was.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:16</time>
Hamilton wrote him back, but Hamilton was so over it like, it's, it's a funny

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:22</time>
exchange even though it led to death.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:24</time>
Hamilton instead of apologizing wrote a letter back criticizing

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:28</time>
Aaron Burr's grammar.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:30</time>
Like, what's the matter?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:31</time>
Don't you know how to, don't you know how to challenge somebody to a duel?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:34</time>
Don't you know how the stuff starts?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:35</time>
Where's your, where's your commas?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:37</time>
Where's your sentence structure?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:27:38</time>
Talk, talk about a hothead, that, that's Hamilton.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:27:41</time>
that's, that's,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:42</time>
back,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:42</time>
like, what are you doing?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:43</time>
And he wrote, hit back.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:44</time>
And it went on for a month until Burr told him, look, I want you to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:48</time>
apologize for every bad thing you've ever said about me in your life, to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:53</time>
anybody you've ever said anything.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:54</time>
And Hamilton said, no, I'm not gonna do that.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:57</time>
So you better just challenge me.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:27:59</time>
And so they went to Wee Hawking.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:02</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:03</time>
Wow.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:03</time>
That's, that's why, it's, it's so funny.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:05</time>
Like,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:06</time>
so they don't really even get into that.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:08</time>
They, they just gloss over all of that.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:10</time>
Makes it easier for

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:11</time>
It's so fun to kind of hear, hear this, this perspective, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:14</time>
Because again, I, I joke all the time on the podcast, like,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:17</time>
I am not a history buff, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:19</time>
, I, I, I could like tell you a little bit about what Hamilton the play

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:22</time>
was at, was about, but like, I can't re speak to it intelligently.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:25</time>
No.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:26</time>
But one of the things you saw once that, that I've enjoyed when we've been down

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:29</time>
to Colonial Williamsburg a whole bunch of times, and we've talked once or twice

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:32</time>
about some of the reenactors there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:34</time>
And so Martha Washington, we've got to see her a couple times.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:38</time>
And we saw a solo performance that she did for like the audience one time,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:41</time>
and she was very good about answering questions from the kids in the audience.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:46</time>
So when she would talk about whatever era mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:48</time>
she was, saying she was in, whether it's, pre, before her husband was

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:51</time>
president or after she was newly elected.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:53</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:53</time>
Newly elected.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:54</time>
He was newly elected.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:54</time>
She would answer questions from the audience and she would, if a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:57</time>
kid was raising their hand, she would always go right to the kid.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:59</time>
And of course, so of course a couple, one or two Hamilton questions came up.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:03</time>
And even she in her character would very politely right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:07</time>
As.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:08</time>
I guess you would expect of a woman , and, who's the . First Lady or whatever

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:12</time>
would make these like sly kind of digs.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:14</time>
Like, oh, I don't, I'm not gonna really talk too much about Hamilton.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:17</time>
There's a reason they call him the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:19</time>
Tom Kat and this, that, and the other.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:29:20</time>
because

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:22</time>
That's, that's right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:23</time>
So it's, it's always interesting for me to hear more about this.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:26</time>
And one of the questions we actually had in the chat from Facebook was, are there,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:30</time>
do you know of any Aaron Bur Reenacters?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:33</time>
This is a friend of ours, Doug McLarty.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:34</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:35</time>
Like there are for Jefferson or Hamilton, and we've come

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:38</time>
across other, other Reenacters.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:40</time>
Have you ever seen or come across any Aaron Burr?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:43</time>
Reenacters?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:44</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:44</time>
I, I imagine that'd be a little bit more

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:46</time>
rare.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:29:46</time>
it's gonna be rare, but I'll tell you in 2004, We in the Aaron

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:29:50</time>
Bur Association had a reenactment of the duel for the 200th anniversary

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:29:55</time>
of the due with the hamiltonians.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:57</time>
Oh,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:58</time>
cool.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:29:59</time>
There were sit-downs, there were lots of conversations, there

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:02</time>
was compromises that were made.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:05</time>
Who's gonna get to speak first, who's gonna get to give the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:08</time>
first interview to the media?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:10</time>
And in that dual, we had Antonio Burr, who's one of our most prominent

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:15</time>
members, and very scholarly.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:17</time>
If I know things about Aaron Burr, he knows everything.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:21</time>
, Aaron Burr is quite

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:22</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:23</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:23</time>
He's one of our vice presidents of the organization.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:26</time>
He played Aaron Burr in that reenactment.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:29</time>
So, but otherwise, very uncommon.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:32</time>
Definitely the guy the guy who

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:34</time>
I thought you talked to someone at the Capitol building?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:37</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:38</time>
Okay.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:38</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:39</time>
I thought you talked to someone at the Capitol building in DC who played

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:44</time>
Burr, and you asked him a couple questions and he knew some of the stuff.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:47</time>
I remember you posting something like that on Facebook,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:50</time>
yeah, I mean there was, during Obama's first inauguration, they had

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:53</time>
the Jefferson, the guy who was the most prominent Jefferson Reactor, who I've

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:30:57</time>
met several times at several conferences.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:00</time>
George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:02</time>
In my I may have gotten into it with the Jefferson Read actor, cuz

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:05</time>
he called Aaron Burris Scoundrel.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:08</time>
I told him I'd give him a, I told him I'd give him a book list to read

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:13</time>
Oh my

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:14</time>
never heard about Andrew Jackson being involved in the trees in trial.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:17</time>
And I said, well baby, you need to read some of these books so that Mr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:20</time>
Jefferson

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:21</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:21</time>
George Washington didn't wanna talk to me Afterwards.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:24</time>
He goes, you don't have any questions for me, do you like, I'm good.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:28</time>
I'm just, I'm just a punk kid who

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:29</time>
One last thing about the duel, because I do want to get this out there because

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:32</time>
it's one of those unco un unknown things and it's definitely not in the play.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:38</time>
He does mention the play once that, when, the, in the rap that Hamilton

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:41</time>
was wearing his glasses, right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:43</time>
Which came from Hamilton second pen Pendleton, Nathaniel Pendleton the,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:47</time>
so Chase Manhattan, the bank in New York City has the guns because Aaron

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:53</time>
Burr is the founder of the Manhattan Company, which became Chase Manhattan.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:56</time>
They're in a vault.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:31:57</time>
One time I was sweet talk enough when I lived in New York City to get in

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:03</time>
there and got to put on the white gloves and I got to hold the guns.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:08</time>
No

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:08</time>
way.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:09</time>
That's so cool.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:10</time>
in the seventies for the, by out all the fields and they're, and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:16</time>
again, they're John Church's guns, so they're Hamilton's brother-in-laws.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:19</time>
They're the same guns that Philip was killed with cuz he used them in

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:22</time>
Yes.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:23</time>
family used these guns and there's a reason they used these guns

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:27</time>
is in 19, the, the paperwork they gave me that in 1976 for the bicentennial,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:32</time>
they were gonna make cast molds of the guns to put out, like, to sell like

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:38</time>
Franklin Min or whatever they're doing.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:40</time>
Replicas.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:41</time>
yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:41</time>
had to open the guns and when they opened the guns, they found something

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:45</time>
that nobody had known before, that these guns were completely set up to win.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:52</time>
John Church was a cheater in these guns.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:54</time>
So first of all, they're waited in the front.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:32:57</time>
, which is illegal in dueling cuz the gun was supposed to fly, right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:00</time>
You weren't supposed to actually kill anybody.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:02</time>
It was just supposed to show up and be a man.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:04</time>
And then the gun would fly up.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:05</time>
The bullet would fly off and you'd be like,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:07</time>
Just, just because the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:08</time>
kick.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:08</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:08</time>
let's hook it out now.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:09</time>
Because we, we did it, we showed we were

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:11</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:11</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:12</time>
Secondly, they both have sites, which there should not be sites and guns.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:17</time>
But the real trick was there was a spring inside of both guns.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:22</time>
And that if you push the trigger forward, sort of backwards, it

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:25</time>
released a tension mechanism inside so that you're not putting as much

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:29</time>
pressure on the back pole of the gun.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:31</time>
All you have to do is tap it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:33</time>
And so whoever knew to push the trigger forward just had to tap

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:36</time>
the pistol and the bullet would fly faster than the other gun.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:40</time>
And

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:41</time>
Whoa.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:42</time>
speculation Hamilton, Pulse is going well.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:46</time>
According to Hamilton second Pendleton, Hamilton was gonna fire

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:49</time>
into the air cuz he is a gentleman and didn't want burn him to die.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:52</time>
But again, Hamilton had been in lots of dues

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:55</time>
at that point hated Burr with a passion and, had lost his own political affair.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:33:59</time>
And I think it's Roo who speculates, he was also dying possibly of stomach cancer

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:03</time>
at the same time and was hiding it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:06</time>
And this is a way to take at himself and Burr in the speculation.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:09</time>
Again, it's all speculation.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:11</time>
Burr second William VanNess said that Hamilton was practicing his shot,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:16</time>
holding the gun, aiming, and then he put on his glasses so he can get a

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:20</time>
good shot and that he brought the gun down and as he brought the gun down,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:25</time>
it fired quickly and went into a tree.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:29</time>
So the possibility, again, putting it out there.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:33</time>
No proof, but the guns themselves would lead you to believe that if that is true,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:38</time>
that Hamilton had pushed the trigger forward and misfired on that quick shot

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:44</time>
or maybe accidentally pushed the trigger forward and misfired on the quick shot,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:47</time>
and then Burr just hit a lucky bullet

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:48</time>
I have ne I've

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:49</time>
and penetrated Hamilton in two different ways that killed him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:34:53</time>
And nobody ever talks about that

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:54</time>
No,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:55</time>
that's super.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:55</time>
I've never heard that about the guns and yeah, like I've, I think I've

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:00</time>
heard a little bit about like, him putting the glasses on that he's

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:03</time>
intending to take the be right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:05</time>
A little bit of here and there, but nothing like that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:07</time>
That's, that changes the whole

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:09</time>
does, and it's

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:10</time>
That's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:11</time>
papers they give out at the Chase Manhattan Bank.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:13</time>
I just don't know how many people know.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:15</time>
That they've got the archives there of it and that they cracked it open

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:18</time>
in the seventies to, to know that.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:20</time>
And again, all speculation, all you hamiltonians out there, I don't know.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:25</time>
There's no proof just putting it out there.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:29</time>
You do your own critical thinking.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:31</time>
All do my critical thinking and I'm gonna stand with Burr second in his perspective.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:36</time>
You stand with your perspective.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:37</time>
It's

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:38</time>
yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:38</time>
. So moving on to the Treason trial.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:39</time>
So I, so I'm curious because again, this is one of those

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:42</time>
things, for , the general learner.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:45</time>
, I've probably heard about it.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:46</time>
I was like, oh, yeah, you, I never heard he got put on trial for

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:48</time>
something or other, some sort of treason, but I was like, yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:50</time>
Then nothing ever happened.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:52</time>
What's , the backstory on

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:53</time>
the backstory is obviously Burr was out of power.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:56</time>
Not

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:56</time>
Yep.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:56</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:35:57</time>
like a vice president who killed the most popular Secretary of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:00</time>
the Treasury who invented our economic system, , and he was tried for murder.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:04</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:05</time>
In New York, even though it was, and again, I'm not gonna

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:08</time>
justify it, but it was completely legal to have dues in New Jersey.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:11</time>
That's why they went and they went on it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:14</time>
And so he was obviously disgraced.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:18</time>
And that's usually what happened in dues.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:20</time>
When you read about dues.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:21</time>
The person who lived is the person who then had to bear the weight of being

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:24</time>
an awful person for actually killing

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:27</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:28</time>
And so Burr lived in what is, well now what's Greenwich Village in New York?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:33</time>
In the village used to be, his entire estate was Richmond Hill.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:37</time>
So like if you go to a restaurant down there, one, if I see it's,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:41</time>
it was his carriage house.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:42</time>
There's Gate was at Barrack Street, all kinds of stuff.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:45</time>
Actually, if you go down to the Village, I think it's on sixth Avenue and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:49</time>
fourth Street, there's a McDonald's.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:51</time>
And if you go to the bathrooms at the McDonald's, there's a picture of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:54</time>
Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton that this used to be, where they walked

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:36:58</time>
so, Burr is disgraced.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:01</time>
He's never gonna get power again with the Democrat Republican party.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:04</time>
Basically Jefferson ousted him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:06</time>
Jefferson had already been angry at him for lots of stuff.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:10</time>
First of all, they tied for the presidency, and Burr didn't refuse

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:15</time>
it, which Jefferson wanted him to.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:18</time>
Okay, well you weren't supposed to be president.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:20</time>
This happened by accident.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:21</time>
It's my turn, basically.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:23</time>
And Burr says, I got as many votes as you did.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:26</time>
I'm just as entitled to it as you are.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:28</time>
And it was actually, they set that up because they wanted to eliminate Adam.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:33</time>
and Burr was very popular in New York, so they thought he could

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:37</time>
take the northern vote and just get squeak underneath Jefferson.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:40</time>
And of course, back then, if you got second place, you

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:42</time>
became vice president, right?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:45</time>
And like I said, he refused to impeach justice chase for political

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:49</time>
reasons as president of the Senate.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:51</time>
And that was after he killed Hamilton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:53</time>
He stood up, made an impassioned speech in the Senate and said, if

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:56</time>
we're gonna preserve something to the effect of we're gonna preserve the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:37:59</time>
Senate, we've got to make it free of corruption, of political corruption.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:04</time>
It has to be an institution of just an honor.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:07</time>
And people applauded.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:09</time>
And then he left.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:10</time>
And then basically Jefferson was done with him at that point,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:13</time>
which leads to the treason trial.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:15</time>
Jefferson had a vendetta against him.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:18</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:19</time>
himself had so many vendettas, but whole big thing, . So Burr is outta power.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:27</time>
Needs power starts to make friends with kind of these people from the west,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:32</time>
the western farmers from Tennessee and Kentucky that are in Ohio that are

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:37</time>
starting to become a political force because the Democrat Republicans have

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:41</time>
ousted the Federalists and Democrat Republicans of the common man.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:44</time>
The common farmer Burr was one of the instrumental people in getting them the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:49</time>
right to vote, especially in New York as Attorney General, so that, they could

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:52</time>
vote too, not just landed property people.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:55</time>
And they were the party of immigrants and they were the party

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:38:58</time>
of, like I said, farmers, like Jefferson said, gentlemen farmers.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:02</time>
And so

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:39:04</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:04</time>
was hanging out with them all the time and they, their complaints

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:08</time>
were the Mississippi River.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:09</time>
They had no way to transport.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:11</time>
. No way.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:12</time>
Because Spain was always there.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:14</time>
Spain was always doing shenanigans to New Orleans and the Mississippi

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:19</time>
to block their transports.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:21</time>
And there was no way to get stuff overland through the Appalachians.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:24</time>
Mississippi was there heart and if you're running for president or

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:29</time>
you're looking for a popular thing, you're looking for what's popular.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:32</time>
And for them, Spain being the enemy was popular and he wasn't the first.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:38</time>
Everybody else was like, we should go invade Florida.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:41</time>
We should go invade Texas.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:43</time>
Mexico at the time and we should take Spain out cause they're

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:46</time>
cutting trade on the Mississippi.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:48</time>
They're sending raids into Georgia.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:51</time>
They're from Florida.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:52</time>
We should take all this stuff.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:53</time>
And it's, it's not uncommon that even Jefferson thought about it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:39:57</time>
Hamilton thought about it during the quai war of 18 90, 80, formed an army.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:03</time>
and he was gonna march on the, on Spain until Adams wanting his power back,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:08</time>
signed the treaty with, with France so that Spain wouldn't have to fight.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:12</time>
And Hamilton lost his commission passed his anti-immigrant legislation.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:19</time>
So Hamilton

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:40:20</time>
Thank you.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:22</time>
the alien

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:40:22</time>
Immigrant anti-immigrant legislation.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:25</time>
alien illegal aliens, and even immigrants, and tried to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:28</time>
curb people criticizing government for all of his free speech.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:33</time>
But Burr is looking for popularity.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:36</time>
He's looking for a way to get back into power as far as we know.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:40</time>
Like I said, a lot of his letters and a lot of speculation

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:43</time>
exists that, why did he do that?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:45</time>
What, what actually happened at West?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:47</time>
Who knows?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:48</time>
There's so many people involved in this that have watered it down,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:52</time>
changed stuff, doctored letters but basically what's happening is Jefferson

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:57</time>
had bought the Louisiana purchase.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:40:59</time>
And he was planning Lewis and Clark's expedition.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:02</time>
And one of the things Jefferson did was appointed a guy named general James

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:07</time>
Wilkinson as governor of Louisiana Territory, like the whole territory.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:11</time>
And James Wilkinson had been well known by Bird during the revolution as a guy

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:17</time>
who played fast and loose at the rules as a soldier, it's a possibility he tried

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:21</time>
to launch a coup against Washington at one point that bur himself stopped by

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:27</time>
taking the bullets out of the soldier's guns before they could launch the coup.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:31</time>
But Wilkinson was just a, a free for all spirit who lived by his own rules.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:36</time>
And now we know from documents that he was also probably a triple agent and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:41</time>
working for Spain at the same time.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:43</time>
Desy on

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:41:44</time>
Oh, holy cow.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:45</time>
our governor of Louisiana.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:41:49</time>
Oh,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:49</time>
as Jefferson sent Lewis and Clark James Wilkinson sent pike into the West.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:41:57</time>
And what we can only assume, again through letters and documents is that

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:02</time>
Pike went too far and Pike ventured in New Mexico out of Louisiana Purchase and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:08</time>
Pike was arrested, taken to jail, and then set free with some speculation that

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:13</time>
Wilkinson told him to do that, to see how far he could launch into Mexico from

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:20</time>
Louisiana purchase before he got caught.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:23</time>
And so Pike was part of this

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:42:24</time>
Oh wow.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:26</time>
And then Burr went on his own expedition.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:29</time>
And so his involved people like Andrew Jackson and Henry Clay

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:34</time>
and a guy named Hyron Harron.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:36</time>
Lenner has it from Lenner Hazard Island between West Virginia and Ohio.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:40</time>
All these kind of very famous Western lawyers and big name people out west who

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:45</time>
were like, we also want to take out Spain.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:49</time>
And so again, we don't know what happened necessarily, but we do know that Burr at

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:42:53</time>
some point started building what could be perceived as an army, and a Navy,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:00</time>
and sailed from Lenner Hazard Island down the Ohio River with a Flotilla that

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:06</time>
was backed by lots of people with money like Jackson, who had invited him to the

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:10</time>
Hermitage and supported this endeavor.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:13</time>
Oh, okay.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:14</time>
they ended up floating down the Mississippi and they ended up

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:17</time>
setting up basically a base camp in Mississippi, in Natchez, Mississippi.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:22</time>
That's what we knew.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:24</time>
. So,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:26</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:26</time>
So, so to be honest, right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:28</time>
Again, I can see how that might make the, the current make Jefferson nervous,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:34</time>
a little

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:34</time>
bit

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:35</time>
But the thing

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:36</time>
know, not saying that what he did was right, but I

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:38</time>
can see how he'd be like, oh

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:40</time>
yeah, I think

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:43:41</time>
you're trying to

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:42</time>
be great, except for the fact that it was so out in the open, like

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:46</time>
everybody knew what was happening.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:48</time>
These were like prominent people and they were writing letters to Jefferson, Hey,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:52</time>
do you know what Aaron Burr is doing?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:53</time>
Do you know that Aaron Burr is drifting down the Ohio River?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:56</time>
And it's not like it was a day trip.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:43:58</time>
It took a while, and Jefferson knew about it for like a year

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:01</time>
and didn't do anything about it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:44:02</time>
yeah.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:03</time>
I'm just like, well keep monitoring it with the situation.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:06</time>
When it became politically expedient with his embargo act that suddenly

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:11</time>
we were gonna be at war with France, possibly England, possibly, and he

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:16</time>
didn't want Spain getting riled up.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:19</time>
Then he decided it was time to arrest.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:23</time>
But we don't know what happened, . We don't know what happened.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:26</time>
Burr's side of the story was they were going to set up a new territory

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:32</time>
in Mississippi that he was gonna establish a life there and be a

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:37</time>
political kind of force in, in the west.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:39</time>
Probably most likely what they were gonna do was use it as an invasion

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:42</time>
point to invade Mexico at Vera.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:45</time>
Cause he had apparently, according to people like Preble and Eaton who were

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:51</time>
like in the Barbery wars, they saw his maps and his map was, we're gonna launch

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:44:54</time>
a, an assault on Vera Cruzs March to Mexico City, which eventually we did.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:00</time>
The US Mexican war was basically, if that is to be true, Aaron Burr's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:05</time>
plan for the invasion of Mexico

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:08</time>
And when he sold it

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:45:09</time>
Wow.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:10</time>
Napoleon's dossier that he also proposed this Napoleon.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:13</time>
And so when the French invaded Mexico, they use that plan.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:17</time>
But what happened was, as far as we know, James Wilkinson has a moment of panic.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:24</time>
Because he's allowed bur to Louisiana, Pike's been arrested.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:29</time>
Wilkinson is going to be implicated in this.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:32</time>
It's probably Wilkinson's whole plan and scheme.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:34</time>
Anyway, he was probably the one who wanted to cut the west from the east

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:38</time>
cuz he wanted his own political power.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:39</time>
He doesn't pay being paid as a spy for Spain.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:43</time>
He starts sending correspondence to Jefferson and it's heavily edited

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:47</time>
like you can see in his letters where he erased words and changed

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:52</time>
words in his own handwriting.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:54</time>
The, the letters from Burr, like, they'll say things, then he,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:57</time>
there's this eraser mark and it's totally different handwriting.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:45:59</time>
Like, I'm gonna secede the west, I'm gonna take down America, or things like that.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:03</time>
It was clearly

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:46:05</time>
it's, it's like if my, my kid, my kids are trying to, get,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:46:09</time>
get outta school and they just

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:46:10</time>
Erase it and try to really fake my signature there.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:14</time>
and so suddenly Jefferson's like, oh, we can't have this.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:17</time>
And so he sends out, Soldiers to arrest Brewer.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:21</time>
They chase burs of the South.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:23</time>
He's eventually arrested like Alabama ish area.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:26</time>
Wilkinson also sends out people to find Burr first, cuz then

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:30</time>
he is like, oh, wait a minute,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:46:31</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:32</time>
what if Burr does get arrested?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:34</time>
And then he sings on me.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:36</time>
So like, it's a race to Kebo.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:38</time>
There's a really good book called Jefferson and the Gunman that's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:41</time>
like all about the race to catch bird, who's gonna win the race.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:44</time>
Burr was eventually knocked out, put on horseback and dragged to Virginia.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:49</time>
At one point he jumped off the horse and he demanded sanctuary in South Carolina.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:53</time>
I am the vice president, please somebody save me.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:56</time>
But he ended up in Richmond at the trial.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:46:58</time>
And there was obviously all these things going on.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:01</time>
John Marshall was presiding.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:05</time>
They had the pre-hearing where Jefferson was keeping the documents

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:08</time>
of why Burr was guilty from the court.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:11</time>
Marshall demanded Jefferson declared executive privilege the first time

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:15</time>
executive privilege is declared.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:16</time>
Jefferson says, I don't have to give you why.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:18</time>
No, he is guilty.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:19</time>
And Marshall's like, you have to let me know why he is guilty.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:21</time>
It's a trial.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:23</time>
And so Jefferson, the strict constructivist tries to expand

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:27</time>
the definition of treason, loosely into what Burr was doing.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:34</time>
And Marshall's like no, treason is an actual overt act of treason planning

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:41</time>
stuff doesn't constitute treason.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:43</time>
And you have no overt act.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:45</time>
There's no point, there's no civil war happening that you're saying

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:49</time>
there is Burr is innocent and they, to prove treason constitution.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:54</time>
He two witnesses.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:55</time>
The only witness was James Wilkinson Burden had, they

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:47:59</time>
didn't have two witnesses.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:00</time>
The witnesses they had that stood up were clearly outta their mind.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:03</time>
They were dismissed and Burr was dismissed.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:06</time>
And then Jefferson wasn't happy and had him tried all over the place

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:10</time>
and all the states he ventured to.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:11</time>
And Henry Clay was his lawyer in Kentucky and.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:15</time>
Burr left.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:16</time>
He's like, I can't do this.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:17</time>
And he fled to Europe and went to England, tried to sell his

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:48:20</time>
That's when he

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:21</time>
And then tried to sell his plan to France and Napoleon wouldn't

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:24</time>
let him out of France because he didn't want some other leader

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:27</time>
knowing about his plans from Mexico.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:29</time>
And Jefferson wanted him there cause he didn't want Burr coming back.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:33</time>
Eventually Burr had to sneak back in the country in 1812, dressed

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:38</time>
as a Frenchman with a goatee and a mustache that his name was Adolphus.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:48:44</time>
Oh my gosh.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:44</time>
But his luggage said ab.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:48:46</time>
when Theodosia goes to see him.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:48:48</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:48:49</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:48:49</time>
And that's when Theodosia goes to

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:48:50</time>
see

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:51</time>
her letter says, I'm back in

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:52</time>
New York, and that's early 1812.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:54</time>
She doesn't know at the time Aaron Burr had died.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:48:58</time>
His, her son, his only grandson who he called Gampi.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:49:02</time>
Yes.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:04</time>
and she was sick from the death and it had been a rough childbirth.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:07</time>
Anyway, she'd been really sick since she gave birth to him.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:10</time>
It led to a lot of fever and internal bleeding.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:13</time>
And so she wasn't able to leave till December 31st and she set sail with his

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:49:18</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:49:18</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:49:18</time>
It's, we

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:19</time>
see him.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:49:20</time>
with his papers.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:22</time>
all we know is that a British fleet, cuz it's about the war.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:25</time>
It's the war of 1812.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:27</time>
And so a British fleet pulled the patriot over, pull over , and did a

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:31</time>
check, said that she was on board.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:34</time>
That was the last time we heard of her.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:35</time>
Then she vanished and either, like you said in the video, a hurricane destroyed

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:41</time>
the boat, which is obviously very likely.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:44</time>
But in 1820 there were two pirates in a jail cell in New Orleans who

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:50</time>
said that they had killed her.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:53</time>
That they'd taken her and killed her and made her walk the plank.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:57</time>
and she drowned,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:49:58</time>
burr would for the two months cuz nobody knew what happened to the ship.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:02</time>
And Olson was out of his mind, Burr was out of his mind.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:05</time>
Burr would go down to the New York Harbor every day and stand

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:08</time>
on the harbor for hours they said.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:10</time>
And just wait for the ship to come in

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:11</time>
Oh.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:12</time>
never came in.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:12</time>
And so, but, and the letters stopped being written, so

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:18</time>
yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:18</time>
Ship graveyard.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:19</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:19</time>
Well, this is, Sean, this is awesome.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:21</time>
This, this is, this has been absolutely amazing.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:23</time>
We've been, we've been going for an hour, and I feel like it

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:26</time>
went by in about five minutes,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:28</time>
It's amazing to me, all I could think about, when you were telling me all

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:32</time>
the things that, that Aaron Bur was doing, I was like, this guy was a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:35</time>
busy.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:36</time>
man.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:37</time>
He did all this stuff.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:38</time>
He was in, he was involved in all this different politics and all this mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:43</time>
, all these different things and like, doing questionable things with a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:45</time>
flotilla down the, down the Mississippi.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:47</time>
You know why his decision or not, and then runs off to Europe and he is

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:51</time>
interacting with Napoleon in different countries and comes back and, yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:50:54</time>
All these crazy things.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:56</time>
They would talk about how Burr was alone and you just, you'd see

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:50:59</time>
this guy shuffling up and down the streets of New York and people were

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:02</time>
like, well, that's, that's Aaron Burr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:04</time>
And he'd ride boats on the, he'd ride ferries to Wee Hawking and he'd

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:07</time>
write letters about, that time I shot my friend Alexander Hamilton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:11</time>
And the great part about the musical that I do love is when they they quote

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:15</time>
his journal, which is, if I had been smart enough or if I'd been, kind enough

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:22</time>
or patient enough, I would've seen the world was big enough for both of us.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:26</time>
That comes directly from his journal.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:28</time>
He says, if I had read more

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:51:29</time>
That's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:30</time>
of these books rather than these books, I would've seen that It's

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:33</time>
a, he Tristan Shandy or something.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:35</time>
He reads a guy who has a fly and then lets the fly flat of the window

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:39</time>
instead of killing it, and he says, if I had, read more of those books than

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:42</time>
less of the other books, then I could have seen The world was big enough

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:45</time>
for Hamilton and I'd live together.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:51:49</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:51:49</time>
How often do you meet your Aaron Bur society?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:51:53</time>
Do you meet monthly and do you meet in person?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:55</time>
They, the Borough Association meets basically right now, twice a year.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:51:59</time>
We, we, with Covid, we started meeting on his birthday, which

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:02</time>
again is when the dues are dues.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:03</time>
Sorry, Stewart, if you're watching, they're coming, which is February 6th

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:07</time>
which at my house means birthday cake and it's, we celebrate Aaron birthday, cause

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:52:14</time>
Aw, nice.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:52:14</time>
Aw, that's awesome.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:15</time>
Usually they meet for a week long conference in September,

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:20</time>
October revolving around something that has to do with Aaron Burr.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:22</time>
So this year they're meeting in Virginia.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:24</time>
Charlottesville.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:25</time>
They're gonna go to Monticello.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:26</time>
They're gonna go to James Madison's house.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:28</time>
James Monroe's house.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:31</time>
They're gonna get tours of all of that because it's such an

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:33</time>
important part of Burr's life

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:34</time>
people are interested in the Borough Association, I can definitely give you

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:38</time>
guys the address that they can inquire from our president, Stuart Johnson, who

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:43</time>
is so a lot of the Borough Association is descendants of Aaron Burr's cousins.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:52:49</time>
Because obviously he has no official direct descendants.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:52:53</time>
Yeah, we'll put the Yes, send, definitely send me the information cuz

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:52:57</time>
for anybody watching or listening, , I'll, I'll put that information in , the video

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:00</time>
description of the podcast description.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:02</time>
, and Sean, , this is, this has been incredibly educational

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:06</time>
for someone like me.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:07</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:07</time>
I love and really, really interesting the stories that you've been telling.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:10</time>
I, I'm, , It's a little bit mind blowing for me, , for one single

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:13</time>
person like this who's really remembered for a couple things , and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:17</time>
could be remembered for so much more.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:19</time>
That's usually what people ask me is where do I start?

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:21</time>
Where do I jump off to learn about Aaron Burr?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:53:23</time>
Yeah, absolutely.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:24</time>
I, of always recommend Arnold Drogas book a Fatal Friendship.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:28</time>
If you can find a copy of it, it, I think does the best job

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:31</time>
of being kind to both of them.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:34</time>
So obviously you have like Joseph Ellis, founding Brothers, where Burr

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:37</time>
is a villain in that book and you have turnout's book that is obviously

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:40</time>
the gold standard of Hamilton.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:41</time>
But I like this book because it just portrays that their sad

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:46</time>
destiny of how they both were raised the same way and their lives and

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:50</time>
intertwined and law and friendship.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:52</time>
And it's just the, the breakdown of a friendship to the point where one

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:53:57</time>
friend kills the other and has to deal with that the rest of their.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:54:01</time>
it does a lot of great research in it.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:54:03</time>
So I would say if you're gonna start somewhere, start with

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:54:06</time>
Arnold RGAs, fatal Friendship.

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:54:07</time>
There's a lot of great new books, Nancy Eisenberg, HW Brands, lot of

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:54:12</time>
lot of bur books coming out that people are starting to, to write.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:16</time>
Sean, thank you so much for joining us, Mike, this, this really

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:20</time>
has been super fun because I can tell, just like Jen here, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:24</time>
You truly do have a, a passion for this historical topic.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:27</time>
And when someone has a passion like this for a topic on history, it's so

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:31</time>
much more fun to, to learn mm-hmm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:34</time>
about that topic from that person, from you.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:36</time>
So I, I really do

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:37</time>
appreciate you coming

<cite>Shawn:</cite>
<time>00:54:38</time>
you guys having me on.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:39</time>
with us tonight.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:42</time>
And for anyone else listening, if you know anyone else that might enjoy this podcast,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:46</time>
please share it with them, especially if they are an Aaron Burr fan because

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:50</time>
we rely on you, our community to grow.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:52</time>
And we appreciate y'all every day.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:54:54</time>
We'll talk to you next time.

The Story