Visiting Edgar Allan Poe's Grave: His Mysterious Death and Baltimore History

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Imagine a cold, rain-soaked night in October 1849.

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A man is found wandering the streets of Baltimore, delirious, dressed

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in clothes that aren't his own, and whispering a name into the fog.

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Days later, he is dead, taking the secret of his final hours to a lonely grave.

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He was a pioneer of the American short story, the inventor of the

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detective fiction genre, and a man whose very name is synonymous with

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horror, mystery, and the macabre.

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We are talking, of course, about Edgar Allan Poe.

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But the mystery didn't end with his death.

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For decades, his final resting place became the site of a bizarre

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tradition where a cloaked stranger known only as the Poe Toaster would

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appear in the dead of night to leave three roses and a half-empty

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bottle of cognac on his headstone.

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Welcome to Talk with History.

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One filmmaker, one historian, leading history-inspired world

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travels for the curious, the history lovers, and the explorer in us all.

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I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jenn.

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Hello.

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Today we are stepping into the shadows of literary history.

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Jenn recently traveled to Baltimore, Maryland, to visit the historic

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Westminster Hall and Burying Ground to stand before the monument to Edgar Allan

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Poe and his original, more hidden grave.

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We're diving deep into the tragic, mysterious circumstances surrounding

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his death, the shifting history of his actual burial plot, and what it's like

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to explore one of the most hauntingly beautiful cemetery sites in America.

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I'm Scott Bennie, and today we are knocking on the door of the

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ultimate master of mystery All right, Jenn Edgar Allan Poe

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I'm a fan, right?

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I think, didn't, didn't you have to read him in school growing up?

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I think, I think all of us do, especially here in the States, and Edgar Allan

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Poe was always so interesting to me because wasn't quite my thing, but

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people are oddly attracted to his writing and kinda his whole aura.

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Yeah, well I think his…

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I'm a huge fan of The Raven.

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I, I think we had to read that in school, and the, the measure and the pace of his

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poetry is always kinda mysterious- Yeah … anyway, and I love, I love The Raven and

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how he kinda weaves that story together.

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and then Simpsons did a really good job with it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Sim- I

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mean, Edgar Allan Poe is a household name- Yeah

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here in the States.

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He, he is, he's a world famous writer.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right?

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An American writer, and of course, you know, he's a, he's kind

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of a part of American culture.

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And so much so, like, so when I went to Baltimore, this was my second time

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to really get into Baltimore, and the first time I was there I really wanted

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to do Fort McHenry because of the star, star ban- Star Spangled Banner.

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But the second thing I wanted to do was go to Edgar Allan Poe's grave,

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and 'cause that's kinda what you know as- Yeah … Americans of Baltimore.

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And so much so, it's, it's into our NFL team.

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Yeah.

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The Baltimore Ravens are named for his poem The Raven.

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Yeah.

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So I really wanted to go there.

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It, I was lucky.

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It's, it's in, within walking distance of downtown Baltimore, where I was, and

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it's a beautiful cemetery, well-kept.

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I had great access, and then to tell his story, and as we dive more into

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Edgar Allan Poe and his life, I, I am always amazed because writers at

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this time do not really make it big,

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right?

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That's, that's true.

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And, and I would say, and we'll talk more about this- Mm-hmm … for

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him specifically, he was well-known at the time but became m- like,

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his kind of, his legend became much greater after his death.

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Yeah.

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I mean, we get people like Herman Melville who write Moby Dick and

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never appreciated in their time.

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Now it's considered, like, the greatest novel, one of the greatest novels, and he

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dies destitute because writers are not, like, really appreciated in the time.

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And e- even Poe, it's this folklore after his time and this whole mystery of trying

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to discourage his name and bury his name, that really brings him into prosperity.

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You get rare people like Dickens, but even when I went to Dickens' house, he didn't

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make it for a very long time as a writer.

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Destitute, and then finally something took off, right?

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So you have to realize, writers at the time, Oscar Wilde, people who are

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doing this, it's 'cause they have to.

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They love to.

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Yeah.

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They're artists, and that's very much Poe.

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It's like, it's even though he tries his hand at the military, we'll talk about

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this, his lifestyle, he, it's the writing that is what he does his whole life.

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Yeah.

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It's like he- He has to do it

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Now, before we get too much kinda into his background, I do wanna

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give a quick shout-out to someone who wrote us a five-star review.

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Oh, awesome.

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So we got a five-star review from, and I wonder if this person is a Naval

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Academy person, because their name on Apple Podcast is Tecumseh1388.

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So the five-star review, it says, "So well done. This is such an informative

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history podcast. Thank you." So I have seen our five-star reviews

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kinda ticking up on Apple Podcast, so thank you everybody for doing that.

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Please continue to, to leave those reviews, or at least, you

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don't even have to write anything.

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You just can just go in there and drop five stars.

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so it really does kinda help give us some street cred, and I just

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wanna say thank you to Tecumseh1388.

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Yeah.

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We're trying to catch the History Channel.

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Yes.

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We're, we're, we're getting there.

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Talking about Edgar Allan Poe.

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Bringing history back to the History Channel.

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Yes.

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S-

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There will be no aliens in this podcast

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So talking about the Naval Academy and Tecumseh and our military

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background, Edgar Allan Poe has a military background, and I don't

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know if a lot of people know that.

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So you have to realize, Poe he's orphaned, right?

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So his, he comes from a strong military background.

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That's why he's buried in the family Poe plot in Baltimore, Maryland, because

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his grandfather is actually a business leader of Baltimore, so much so during the

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Revolution when Lafayette comes through and his soldiers are wearing threadbare,

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uniforms, his grandfather sponsors the, to all, get all new uniforms.

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Oh, wow.

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So, so the Poe family name is well-known in the Baltimore area.

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Well-known in the Baltimore area, and so much so, like, when Lafayette

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does his return tour, he wants to especially, like, pay homage

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to Baltimore and the Poe family.

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Oh,

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wow.

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So it's like, just a, an important family that really

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supported the American Revolution.

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And so when Poe's… So it's, it's that son, David Poe, who is, Edgar Allan Poe's

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father, David Poe Jr., he is an actor.

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And so this is, again, at the time it's not as you think of actors today.

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It's an art love that you really are almost destitute again.

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Yeah, I

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mean, this is… If you're thinking about it, this is late 1700s,

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early 1800s that someone's trying to make a living as an actor.

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Yes.

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And so he's an actor, and he marries another actress.

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So again, two people who are barely making ends meet.

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Wow.

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And, and he, she has two sons, pretty, quickly.

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William is his older brother, and then Edgar Allan Poe is

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born, January 19th, 1809.

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Yeah.

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His second son.

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And then, David, you know, you have to imagine, we talk about this a lot,

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when things are hard and life isn't going well, men turn to alcohol, and

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women too, to self-medicate because there's no talking about your feelings

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then and working it out and- It

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wasn't a, wasn't a thing

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so he becomes an alcoholic, and-

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This is the older bro- or this is the father.

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The father.

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The

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father.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And, and he abandons the family right as she's pregnant with their third child- Oh,

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wow … which is a daughter, and then he will die of, they believe, tuberculosis-

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Okay

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in 1811, right after the daughter is born.

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And so,

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And that's not long after Edgar- Mm-hmm … Edgar Allan Poe too-

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Yeah … 'cause he was born in 1809.

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Yes.

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Edgar Allan Poe will say that, " My father David died on the second year of my age

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when my sister, Rosalind, was an infant in arms." Now, his wife will also die, in,

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1811.

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Okay, so this is, this is the kids' mom.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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So she dies early on 1811.

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He'll die December 1811, so these kids are all now orphaned, right?

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Wow.

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Now, remember they have a famous paternal grandparent, right?

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Because-

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Yep

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… so that, the oldest son goes to live with them, and then Edgar, goes to Richmond,

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Virginia to the Allan family, and then Rosalind, she also goes to Richmond,

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Virginia to the Mackenzie family.

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The reason why is because the Poe family is in Richmond at the time,

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and even though David has abandoned the family, his, his mother, , Eliza.

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she's a pretty famous actress.

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She's been performing a lot.

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Huh.

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So it's kinda like these benefactors of-

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So they're the ones who take the kids in.

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Take the kids in.

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How interesting.

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And that's where Allan gets that middle name, Edgar Allan Poe.

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He got it from the family that took him in.

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Yes, kind of to pay respect to them.

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Wow.

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So, so again, why does he join the military?

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It's because he's unable to support himself, right?

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And h- his grandparents are helping support this grandchild.

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He can't support himself, and so the Allan family tells him, "You have to

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go make your way in the world." Yeah.

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And so military is in his background, so he enlists in the army in 1827.

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Now, he uses Edgar A. Perry as his name.

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he claims he's 22.

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He's actually 18.

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So he actually tries to go to the University of Virginia first-

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Oh

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in 1826 to study ancient and modern languages.

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But, he ha- has strict rules against gambling, guns, tobacco, alcohol,

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all of the things which Edgar Allan Poe likes to do because- Yeah

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he is young and in college.

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So he's like, "No, thanks."

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Yeah.

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So he gets kicked out.

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So and then he also loses his money because the Allan family loses their

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money, so he t- returns to Richmond and that's when h- again, the Allan

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family is like, "You have to support yourself because- Yeah, we can't

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support you … we can't support you."

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Yeah.

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So that's when he enlists in the Army in 1827, and he serves at Fort Independence

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in Boston Harbor, , he actually gets promoted, to the highest rank he could

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be, sergeant major for the artillery.

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It's the highest rank he could be as a non-commissioned officer,

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and then he sought to end his five-year enlistment early.

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his commanding officer said that they would let him out of his enlistment if

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he reconciled with the Allan family, so he has to write back to the Allan

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family saying, you know, "Can I come back and can I reconcile with you?"

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And they're kinda unsympathetic to his pleas.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:29</time>
Interesting.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:30</time>
so the benefactor's wife dies in 1829, and this softens Allan's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:35</time>
heart, and so he agrees to support his desire to attend West Point.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:40</time>
Oh.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:41</time>
So.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:41</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:42</time>
'Cause I, I, so back then, to get to West Point, to go to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:46</time>
West Point, you had to have-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:47</time>
Mm-hmm

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:48</time>
I, so I, I assume it sounds like someone-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:50</time>
Up an appointment from-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:51</time>
An, an appointment from someone or someone that supports you- Mm-hmm … going.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:54</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:54</time>
Yep.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:10:55</time>
And so he's discharged from the military in 1829, and he secures,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:00</time>
a placement in West Point.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:02</time>
And so that's when he moves back to Baltimore for a short period of time

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:06</time>
and stays with his widowed aunt, Maria Clemm, and meets her daughter,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:11</time>
Virginia Clemm, who's his first cousin.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:14</time>
And, and that's who he marries, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:15</time>
Yes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:16</time>
And he also says that's the first time he's heard very, first

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:20</time>
words of encouragement, someone who actually believes in him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:24</time>
I think that's where that love starts as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:27</time>
Oh,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:27</time>
okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:27</time>
So it's the first time he felt somebody actually, like, you know, believe him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:30</time>
So did, does he decide not to go run off to West Point?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:33</time>
No, he goes to West Point.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:35</time>
He, he becomes a cadet July 1st, 1830, but that's when he, he, meets them.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:41</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:41</time>
Like, he, he meets his first cousin.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:42</time>
Right the same…

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:42</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:42</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:43</time>
And kinda sets that connection-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:45</time>
Yep

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:45</time>
… with them.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:47</time>
and then the Allan male gets remarried to a second wife and- she wants

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:55</time>
nothing to do with these adopted children that are now adults- Gotcha

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:00</time>
that really can't stand on their own.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:02</time>
And so,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:03</time>
So they, do they just cut him off?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:04</time>
And so yeah, he's, he's, he's disowned by,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:08</time>
The Allen family

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:09</time>
… the Allen family.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:10</time>
Man, he kinda had a, he had it rough.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:12</time>
He did.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:13</time>
And so I think during all of this, he has a rough time at West Point because-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:17</time>
Sure

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:18</time>
… he's feeling neglect.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:19</time>
You know, the only father he's ever known-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:20</time>
And the only family he kinda really, truly had Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:23</time>
And if you realize, he only really got words of encouragement from his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:26</time>
first cousin, Virginia, and her mother.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:28</time>
He's tried for gross negligence of duty at West Point, disobedience, not going

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:33</time>
to formations, not going to classes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:36</time>
And so February 8th, 1831, he goes to, like, a court martial.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:40</time>
he pleads not guilty, t- and asks to be dismissed instead.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:45</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:45</time>
All right.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:46</time>
So he go- he does go for a short period of time, like basically barely a year-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:49</time>
Yep

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:50</time>
… and doesn't, kinda can't hack it and because of a multitude of reasons, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:54</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:55</time>
It happens to everybody.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:56</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:56</time>
and so does he… Then from there, does he come back home to Baltimore?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:59</time>
He does, and what happens, what happens too is he is writing poems during this

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:04</time>
time, and his c- fellow cadets love him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:08</time>
Oh.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:08</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:08</time>
His fellow cadets love the poems 'cause think about all this

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:11</time>
time sit- sitting on watch-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:13</time>
Yeah

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:13</time>
… and duty.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:14</time>
I mean, a- and, and that's kinda why poetry was a little bit more of a thing-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:18</time>
Yes

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:18</time>
… back then.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:19</time>
And so they love to hear him talk.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:22</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:22</time>
They love to hear him tell the poems.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:24</time>
And so his first book, he writes a volume of poems titled Poems.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:28</time>
It's financed through his fellow cadets at West Point.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:30</time>
Oh, wow.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:31</time>
Some of them donate as much as 75 cents, and t- a total of $170 was raised.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:36</time>
And so, that really was, I guess, a good example of him

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:41</time>
being supported by his fellow-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:43</time>
So that, that kind of a signal to him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:45</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:45</time>
It's like, "Hey, I, I, I've got, I've got something here."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:47</time>
Yep.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:48</time>
And so he returns to Baltimore to his aunt, his brother, and his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:51</time>
cousin, Virginia, March, 1831.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:53</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:53</time>
So then he gets to Baltimore, and we'll kinda fast-forward 'cause some of the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:57</time>
more fascinating things in his life, a- and I didn't know a lot about that,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:00</time>
about Poe and his background- Mm-hmm

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:01</time>
because I think that's interesting.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:03</time>
People ver- kind of pretty familiar with his works, with The Raven and some

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:07</time>
of the short stories that he wrote.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:08</time>
Tell-Tale Heart, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:09</time>
That's a big one, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:10</time>
E- even in high school I think I had to read that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:12</time>
Yes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:12</time>
so he kinda gets this publishing career, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:16</time>
Yes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:16</time>
Becomes relatively well-known.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
So what, what happens is he's, a- again, publishing, he has to kinda move

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
around to where the jobs are, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:24</time>
And he's working in newspapers, and he's editing, and he's helping.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:28</time>
So there's a Edgar Allan Poe house in Philadelphia.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:31</time>
They believe that's where he wrote The Raven, and they believe that

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:34</time>
because there are letters of rejection of The Raven being published,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:41</time>
sent to him in Philadelphia.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:43</time>
Gotcha.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:43</time>
So they believe he finished it there, he wrote it there, and then he was

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:46</time>
sending it out to people, and he got- So

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:47</time>
he's, he's following work around.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:49</time>
He's following work around.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:51</time>
He, in 1835, so this is 1831, he comes back.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:55</time>
His brother dies in August of 1831.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:57</time>
His brother dies of tuberculosis, so know that this is a common illness at the time.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:03</time>
and so he, in 1835, w- will marry his cousin, Virginia Clemm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:08</time>
Now, he's 26 at the time.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:10</time>
She is 13.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:13</time>
Oof.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:14</time>
Now, she-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:15</time>
Different time

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:15</time>
… different time.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:16</time>
She will claim to be older, because at 13 you need your parents' permission

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
to marry, so she claims to be older.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:21</time>
But, they're married for 11 years until she dies.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:24</time>
Wow.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:24</time>
So, and he really, people believe that there w- it really was a love match,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:28</time>
like they really loved each other.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:30</time>
but she will follow him around, and she gets sick early on, with tuberculosis,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:37</time>
and he helps take care of her.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:39</time>
She's coughing up blood.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:40</time>
So her mother lives with them as well, Maria Clemm- Okay

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:43</time>
to help take care of her, and she really helps take care of Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:48</time>
Like, she mends his clothes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:50</time>
I remember when he's in Philadelphia, his clothes are threadbare.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
Mm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
Like, he doesn't even have enough money to buy a second suit, and so

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:58</time>
she's constantly fixing the suit.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:00</time>
So you have to realize, as a writer, he's barely making ends meet.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:04</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:05</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:05</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:06</time>
he's writing, again, master of the macabre, master of the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:09</time>
first detective novel, really.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:11</time>
He's writing these, what we think of today as masterpieces.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:14</time>
Yeah But they're so new, and to get them to the public, to get the public to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:18</time>
read them and see them, a lot of times people would write in, serials, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:23</time>
They would post, like, a page in a newspaper every week, and the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:28</time>
story would go on and on and on.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:29</time>
A lot of famous authors started that way, Dickens.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
but this is kinda what he's doing, so he's following the jobs around

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:36</time>
Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:39</time>
And, and so this is kind of how his life keeps, progressing, but he comes

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:46</time>
into contact with another writer- Yes

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:49</time>
who's going to actually try to sabotage Poe's life, ends up making Poe's life.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:55</time>
Yeah, and so this was, this was interesting, 'cause we were talking a

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:58</time>
little bit about this yesterday before we came up to record, and I said, "Hey,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:02</time>
do you read, read a lot about after Poe died?" Because I started doing my

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:08</time>
own kind of just quick, again, kind of jokingly non-historian research, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:12</time>
one of the things that I discovered was Poe, right, wasn't really super

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:18</time>
famous at the time, like you said, so he didn't have necessarily a, a reputation.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:25</time>
Mm-mm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:25</time>
He didn't have this reputation that we know of him today of this kind of…

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:30</time>
His work i- is kind of s- read and thought of in this kind of dark, moody,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:36</time>
you know, like you said, the master of the macabre-type way, and that really

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:41</time>
wasn't there even when he passed in, in 1849 or just before he passed.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:47</time>
So you have to understand, Poe is…

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:51</time>
I love him because he takes his writing very seriously,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:56</time>
and he thinks he's really good.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
Yeah, yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:59</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:59</time>
And so much so that he alienates other writers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:01</time>
He accuses Henry Wadsworth Longfellow of plagiarism.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:05</time>
Oh, really?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:05</time>
Wa- Longfellow never responds.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:07</time>
He publicly accuses him of it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:09</time>
So he- And

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:10</time>
Longfellow's a big name

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:11</time>
and that's a big name, and he's well-known and popular.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:13</time>
And so Poe is one of these people, like, he really doesn't care about how it looks.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:18</time>
He only cares about the art, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:21</time>
And how that looks.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:23</time>
And so, Virginia s- she als- show first signs of consumptions,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:27</time>
of tuberculosis in 1842.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:29</time>
I think at this time they actually live in, they might be in New York at

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:33</time>
this time, and she passes away in 1845.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:37</time>
and he is so- distraught, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:41</time>
Or 184- it's 1845, 1846.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:43</time>
she is, he is so distraught when he loses his wife.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:46</time>
but right before that, January 29th, 1845, The Raven is published.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:52</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:53</time>
It appears in the Evening Mirror, and it becomes a popular sensation.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:57</time>
So once it's actually published, it does make him a household name.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:02</time>
He's only paid $9 for it, though.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:04</time>
So this is the issue, is people start to, "Who's this Poe guy?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:09</time>
This is a really good poem."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:10</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:10</time>
But Poe ain't making money.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:12</time>
$9, which equivalent is 300 bucks today, is what he made, for The Raven, the poem

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:19</time>
that ga- makes him a household name.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:21</time>
Now, household name means people say his name.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:25</time>
"Who's this Poe guy? He's, he's a long fellow." Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:27</time>
"He's, a Washington Irving." But, but he's not in the upper echelons

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:32</time>
now of the writing community.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:33</time>
So he's still moving around, and then it'll be January 30th, 1847,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:39</time>
two years later, Virginia will die at that cottage in New York.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:44</time>
this is where he's completely unstable after his wife's death.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:48</time>
He will attempt to court other women.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:51</time>
this is one of the issues that gets him in trouble with Griswold, because

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:53</time>
other women do respond to Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:56</time>
Now, Griswold, I think I was mentioning him earlier.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:00</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:00</time>
This is the other writer, one of the ones that he had alienated, and I think one

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:04</time>
of the things, there was some animosity between them, what I was reading, was

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:09</time>
Griswold was another writer, I think came out with a kind of a book of

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:12</time>
poetry, p- tried to publish a book, and had asked Poe, "Hey," said, "Hey,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:16</time>
you're, y- you write poetry as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
Can you review this?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:19</time>
Can you write a review?" Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:21</time>
And when they would do this, it's not like they're doing it inside the book

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:24</time>
like a blurb like they do nowadays.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:25</time>
They're doing this, like, writing a review in the local

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:27</time>
newspaper or something like that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:29</time>
And I guess Poe is like, "Sure," and then just tears him a new one and s-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
just says, "Hey, this is, this is trash."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:37</time>
And so he kinda, like, stabs him in the back.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:40</time>
I mean, Poe, that was kind of a jerk move, you know?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:43</time>
And so Griswold is like, you know, "Forget you, man." Like, w- what the heck?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:48</time>
So what happens is Griswold is, he's a interesting character

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:51</time>
if you read about him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:52</time>
I think a little bit of a narcissist, which doesn't, that- I

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:57</time>
mean, so is Poe

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:58</time>
so is Poe, but Griswold wasn't as good as Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:01</time>
And what Griswold did, he was called a literary, anthropologist, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:06</time>
I think that's where they gather a bunch of other people's poetry

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:09</time>
and put it into one chronicle.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:12</time>
When he put it into one a- like, annual, edition, and Poe, A, was mad that he

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:19</time>
was included in that because he didn't feel like he picked the best people, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:23</time>
Poe did not wanna be, Wanted to be Like

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:27</time>
associated with them

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:28</time>
associated with that kind of poetry.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:30</time>
Griswold thought that he did a good job picking these po- poets, and I think

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:34</time>
he doctored some of the stuff up, and Poe called him out on all of that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:39</time>
And then they were both hired by the same writing house, to do edits of different

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:45</time>
articles, and Griswold made more.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:48</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:48</time>
And so then Poe was always upset about that as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:51</time>
Yeah, I read that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:51</time>
So Griswold was very, again, y- you know, insulted-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:57</time>
Yeah

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:57</time>
… that Poe did this.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:58</time>
Poe is now a household name.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:59</time>
Griswold's not a household name.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:01</time>
Griswold is just collecting other people's poetry, so he's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:04</time>
not a great writer himself.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:06</time>
He's trying to make his name on other people's writing.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:10</time>
And they also, I, I don't know if they try to court the same woman, but they

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:15</time>
come in contact with the same woman.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:17</time>
Yeah, and I think what I read was- Osgood … it was, there was kind

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:21</time>
of a woman that was also a writer.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:22</time>
She was a writer.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:23</time>
She was also a writer.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:23</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:24</time>
And so Griswold was interested in her, but she was kind of more interested in Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:29</time>
She kinda, kinda had, had eyes for Poe, and so, and I think, I don't know if

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:34</time>
this was right after Poe's wife had passed- Mm-hmm … or whatever like that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:38</time>
But, so again, you know, Griswold's paying Poe to kinda write a review.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:43</time>
Poe writes a scathing review after taking the money.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:46</time>
Yes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:46</time>
The job thing, Griswold's getting paid more, Poe's bitter

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:49</time>
about it, a woman, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
So there is no lost love between these two.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:54</time>
And that woman, I mean, to her credit, Griswold's just saying, w- "I like your

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:58</time>
work, and here's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write you a little bit of my stuff

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:02</time>
to woo you." And she's like, "Huh?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:04</time>
That's horrible." Poe writes her beautiful love poems, and she's like,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:08</time>
"Oh, this is, this guy's got it."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:10</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:10</time>
And that's why she responds more to Poe's poetry, and so she likes Poe a lot more.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:15</time>
Griswold is very rebuffed by that, so it just adds fuel to the fire.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:20</time>
after Poe dies, I think Griswold was kind of like waiting.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:26</time>
Yeah, so, so that's what I read as well, and that w- what I found so interesting

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:30</time>
was Griswold, spoiler alert, was essentially the guy who gave Poe his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:37</time>
reputation as this master of the macabre.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:40</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:40</time>
And we'll kinda walk you guys through that here in just a second, but

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:43</time>
essentially what I read was- After Poe passed, Griswold went into action.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:49</time>
He sprung, sprung into action right away and wrote this just scathing

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:53</time>
obituary of Edgar Allan Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:57</time>
Yeah, so Rufus Wilmot Griswold wrote this highly slanted, high-profile obituary

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:03</time>
under a pseudonym that was published the very next day after Poe died.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:08</time>
So this is what creates all this mystery.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:10</time>
How did Poe die?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:12</time>
Why was he found in different clothes in the, the gutters of Baltimore?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:18</time>
How is he so sick?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:19</time>
And then he's, he's mumbling words, and then he dies.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:22</time>
Was he poisoned?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:23</time>
For him to have this obituary, this scathing obituary ready to be published

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:28</time>
the day after his death, it just, it lends itself to more of a story here.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:34</time>
It, it does, and before we go deeper into that, I do wanna talk quickly

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:38</time>
about kind of the mystery around his death, 'cause there's a couple theories.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:41</time>
Sure.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:41</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:41</time>
So Poe passed.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:43</time>
They, they found him wandering the streets of Baltimore kind

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
of muttering incoherently.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:47</time>
I believe he actually ended up in a hospital but ended up passing

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:49</time>
in a hospital- He did, mm-hmm

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:50</time>
after a couple days.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:51</time>
Wasn't in his own clothes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:53</time>
Just… And everybody's like, "What in the world happened here?" Well,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:56</time>
one of the things that I read that I found very interesting was there

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:59</time>
was, like, a, a theory of, they call it co-oping for election fraud.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:05</time>
So at the time, it seems like there would be, kinda political factions that

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:10</time>
would basically try to grab people and say, "Hey, go vote for this person,"

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:14</time>
but they'd make them change clothes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:16</time>
And so they'd make them change clothes, go, go do the vote, and then have them-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:20</time>
Sure … hightail it out of there.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:21</time>
There's no voter ID There's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:22</time>
no voter ID, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:24</time>
In

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:24</time>
1849, yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:24</time>
And so, so that was, that was one theory was, you know, these ruffians

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:29</time>
had grabbed Poe and said, "Hey, change your clothes and go vote for this guy."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:33</time>
And, you know, who knows?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:34</time>
Maybe he had been… You know, something else had been going on.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:36</time>
But I thought that was just kind of interesting, and I was like,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:39</time>
"Oh, it, it kinda fits," right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:41</time>
Sure.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:41</time>
And then there's some other theories as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:43</time>
Yeah, so again, because- So he dies 1849.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:49</time>
Remember Virginia, his wife who he adored, dies in 1847, so

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:54</time>
two years of a downward spiral.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:56</time>
I would think Rufus Griswold would just have to wait for the inevitable.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:00</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:01</time>
Because Poe was already on his own downward f- downfall.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:05</time>
He falls into alcoholism.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:07</time>
He's getting sick on his own.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:08</time>
He can't afford his own clothing, his own care.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:12</time>
Yeah,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:12</time>
he's spiraling.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:12</time>
He's spiraling, so he's kinda waiting for that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:14</time>
But the way it happens, the circumstances around his death almost feels

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:18</time>
like it was pushed over the edge.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:21</time>
And because this obituary published by Griswold, and he uses the pseudonym

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:27</time>
Ludwig, appears in the New-York Tribune just, the very next day.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:32</time>
And, and in this, in this high-profile obituary that basically everybody

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:38</time>
reads, he talks about Poe as a lunatic, a person who walks the streets in

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:44</time>
madness and melancholy, lips moving in indistinct curses with his eyes

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:49</time>
upturned during passionate prayers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:51</time>
And what sells, right, what gets clicks today is that sensationalism.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:58</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:26:59</time>
And so this obituary that creates this poor down-hearted man as this scathing

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:07</time>
scandal- scandal, scoundrel, it, it sells.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:11</time>
A- and if you think about it, that is not your typical obituary.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:15</time>
So if people are out there reading the paper and they read this obituary,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:18</time>
they're like, "Oh, my gosh, look at this.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:22</time>
Who's this guy he's writing about?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:24</time>
Like, what is going on?" So he, he almost brought more attention to Poe

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:28</time>
than he ever would've gotten in the first place. And one of the lines that

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:31</time>
I read from the obituary that he led off with was, "Edgar Allan Poe is dead.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:36</time>
He died in Baltimore the day before yesterday.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:38</time>
This announcement will startle many, but few will be grieved by it." So he, I

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:43</time>
mean, he leads off- He pulls you right in.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:45</time>
He pulls you right in.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:45</time>
You're like, man, what is… And I'm sure it was a long one because Griswold

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:49</time>
probably had a few things to say.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:51</time>
Yeah, and so, it, so it's further published throughout the country.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:54</time>
Once this is published, and again, it's so scathing- Yeah … and that's gonna sell,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:27:59</time>
it's reprinted, which a lot of newspapers did at the time, throughout the country.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:03</time>
Everyone wants to read this sensational obituary.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:06</time>
And, and so the an- announcement, you know, s- was just so widespread, but

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:12</time>
then it soon… Ludwig, people wanted to know who this, who was this Ludwig guy,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:16</time>
and it's soon identified as Griswold.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:19</time>
and then this grudge comes out.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:21</time>
But What Griswold also does, again, this man, is he wants to really stick it to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:29</time>
Poe, is the only person left alive at this point who has the literary rights

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:34</time>
to Poe's writing is his mother-in-law.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:37</time>
So when we visit the Poe grave, I tell you he's buried beside his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:41</time>
mother-in-law/aunt and his wife/cousin.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:45</time>
So Maria Clemm, his mother-in-law, is also left destitute, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:50</time>
Her daughter has died.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:51</time>
Her son-in-law has died, and she has the rights to his writing.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:28:55</time>
And Griswold approaches her before he po- before it comes out that he's the one who

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:01</time>
wrote this obituary, "I will mentor… I will take good care of his writing.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:06</time>
I will make sure it gets published.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:08</time>
I will make sure you get paid.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:10</time>
I will make sure you get taken care of." And she has nothing at the time,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:14</time>
and she believes him, so she signs over the liter- literary rights to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:18</time>
Edgar Allan Poe's work to Griswold.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:20</time>
Yeah, which is crazy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:22</time>
Oh, my, it's just so… He's so devious.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:24</time>
And then, and then it says what he, what he did with that, and then

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:27</time>
he, like, right away he published, like, let's see what it says here.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:31</time>
A memoir of the author.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:32</time>
A memoir of the author, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:34</time>
And now Griswold, what he did, and we'll talk more about how Griswold was

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:39</time>
eventually found out and discredited, but what he did in that memoir is he

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:43</time>
physically altered and forged letters that Poe had written, making it look

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:47</time>
like Poe was a blackmailer and a traitor to his friends and all this stuff.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:51</time>
But all his friends at the time, when this stuff comes out, they're like, "Wait a

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:54</time>
second, this isn't true." But you didn't have YouTube and Facebook and a way to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:29:59</time>
publicly say, like, "Hey, I'm his friend.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:00</time>
That's not how it actually was." So it took time for people to actually go in.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:06</time>
You know, I, I wanna say the next one was how it actually backfired on

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:10</time>
Griswold was there was someone here.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:14</time>
Hold on.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:14</time>
Well, no.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:15</time>
So it's gonna backfire in a way that he doesn't even expect because it becomes

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:20</time>
a very popular accepted biographal, biography source of Poe, but people love

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:26</time>
that he's this dangerous, devious- This

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:29</time>
dark

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:29</time>
… dark man who writes these dark stories, and they must come from

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:33</time>
a actual life experience, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:37</time>
He's writing about his tortured soul and the things he's seen

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:40</time>
and the things he's done, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:42</time>
Tell-Tale Heart is about a heart being buried under- Yeah … a floorboard.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:46</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:46</time>
And it keeps beating.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:48</time>
So he depicts Poe as the actual guy who could have done this, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:52</time>
people- Love that sensationalist

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:30:55</time>
Yeah, it was, it was such an interesting kinda look back, because at the time

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:00</time>
these things were just happening.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:01</time>
Griswold had such a vendetta against Poe that he wrote this obituary that

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:06</time>
ended up getting more popular than he wrote this book, and people were like,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:09</time>
"Ah, this is amazing." And so now they kind of are seeking out this, this dark,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:13</time>
tortured author's works, making Poe even more famous than he actually was.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:18</time>
And then, you know, later,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:19</time>
But later his real friends come forward- Yeah

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:21</time>
with the actual letters.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:23</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:23</time>
And the actual… This is what really… He wasn't like this at all.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:27</time>
He actually was a, a very melancholy guy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:30</time>
He was a, he was a tortured soul, but he was a good guy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:33</time>
He was not sensational.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:34</time>
Yeah, so Sela- Sarah Helen Whitman, who was a friend o- of his and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:38</time>
I think another, another writer, wrote kind of like one of the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:42</time>
initial true rebuttals in 1860.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:44</time>
And so in 1860 she came out, with a work called Edgar Allan Poe and His

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:49</time>
Critics, and basically used her own personal knowledge and kind of rebutted

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:53</time>
all the things that Griswold was saying.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:31:55</time>
And then even later after that in the 1870s to the 1880s, John Henry Ingram

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:00</time>
went through and actually kinda did the forensic- you know, detective

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:06</time>
work to go and find some of these letters that were doctored, and was

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:10</time>
actually able to uncover and prove that some of these, these letters

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:15</time>
that were in the, the initial Griswold supposed memoir, right, a biography,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:20</time>
that were altered, he proved it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:23</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:23</time>
And so he, he proved it and got this very detailed researched work out

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:28</time>
completely discrediting Griswold.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:31</time>
And so everything over time just com- com- flip- flipped, you

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:35</time>
know, a 180 on Griswold, and he kinda got his comeuppance.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:38</time>
So yeah, Poe dies in 1849.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:41</time>
Griswold will publish this in 1850, and Griswold dies in 1857.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:47</time>
So for seven years he really champions this, pushes it hard,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:50</time>
creates this whole persona for Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:52</time>
It backfires on him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:54</time>
People wanna know more about Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:56</time>
They wanna read his stuff.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:32:57</time>
They wanna … Who is this real, bad guy, and what did he write?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:02</time>
And so in 1860, after Griswold has died, is when the first people start

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:06</time>
to dismantle this, and it continues to be dismantled for about 15 years later.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:12</time>
And this gains notoriety in casting Griswold as the bad guy- Yeah … and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:20</time>
Griswold as this terrible person.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:21</time>
As this,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:22</time>
as this petty-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:23</time>
Yes … you

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:23</time>
know, rival.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:24</time>
But Poe keeps the myst- mystique.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:27</time>
Poe keeps that persona.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:30</time>
Poe gets more popular than ever.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:32</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:32</time>
And that's why you read him in school today, and that's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:35</time>
why his grave is so important.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:37</time>
Now, what happens is when he's buried in the, old Westminster

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:42</time>
Burial Ground, there's not even enough money for a, a marker for him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:45</time>
He's buried in his family plot.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:47</time>
Again, he comes from this aristocrat family of, an early, business family

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:52</time>
of Baltimore, so they have a nice family plot in one of the original

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:33:55</time>
burial grounds, and he's buried there with a rock that says 80 on it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:00</time>
That's it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:01</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:02</time>
once his mother-in-law passes, she's buried beside him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:05</time>
Virginia is left in New York.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:07</time>
Virginia is put into a friend's tomb, and because Poe can't afford to bury her at

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:13</time>
the time, and she's forgotten basically.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:17</time>
And so the people of Baltimore, because he's become so popular and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:20</time>
bec- people visit his grave, and they go to the folklore, and they wanna

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:25</time>
visit on Halloween and read The Raven to him, they start a collection to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:29</time>
get him a marker, to have something in the cemetery to commemorate him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:34</time>
Well- Takes about 25 years, and they've ga- they've gathered enough

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:39</time>
money that it is too big to put in the actual Poe family plot location.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:46</time>
If you s- if you go there and you see our video and see the actual

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:49</time>
location, I take you to both, it would take up the whole space basically.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:54</time>
Now, in the Poe family plot is, of course, his, his dad is there, his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:34:59</time>
brother is there, Poe is there.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:01</time>
He's, he was there with his mother-in-law.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:03</time>
So they move Poe and his mother-in-law to the front of the cemetery, and that,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:09</time>
when Virginia was buried in a tomb of a friend, that cemetery in New York, as you

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:15</time>
can imagine, as New York expanded, became forgotten, and they were moving bones.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:22</time>
And one of Poe's friends knew Virginia was there, and went

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:27</time>
himself and collected her bones-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:30</time>
Wow

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:31</time>
and saved them.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:32</time>
So when they moved him to the front of the Baltimore cemetery in 1875

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:37</time>
with the new marker, he said, "I think he would like to be buried with his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:41</time>
wife, Virginia. I actually have saved her bones. I have them here." And

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:45</time>
so she was also moved there as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:47</time>
So she wasn't originally buried in the back area, and she was moved there

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:52</time>
when they moved the original stone.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:54</time>
So this is all garnered, though, after his life.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:59</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:59</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:35:59</time>
This popularity of Poe is after his life.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:02</time>
He's originally buried with a rock.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:05</time>
That's how much popularity and money he had at the time.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:08</time>
And so really, I, I j- I don't know if you wanna thank Griswold, but

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:15</time>
we think of Poe today, we honor Poe today, the mystery of him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:18</time>
Even when I visited there, there's so much, atmosphere around his grave.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:24</time>
So many people still visit there.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:26</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:27</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:27</time>
It's very popular to go see Edgar Allan Poe's grave.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:30</time>
The Baltimore Ravens are named for him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:32</time>
I don't know if this would've happened without the conspiracy

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:37</time>
to slander him- Yeah … as hard as Griswold did after he died.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:41</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:41</time>
It's, it's pretty wild, and so that's why in the intro when I mentioned kinda

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:44</time>
you s- the, his monument, you know, the, the memorial for him and his, his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:48</time>
wife and, his mother-in-law, it's very obvious, v- easy to see from the street.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:52</time>
You can see it through, you know, if the, if the cemetery's not open.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:55</time>
So go, you know, watch our video, or if you're in Baltimore, go check it out.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:36:59</time>
his other original plot, right, they do have a headstone

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:02</time>
with a raven on it, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:04</time>
So there's been things that have kind of, been built up over

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:07</time>
time in the Poe family plot.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:09</time>
Now, tell me about the toaster.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:12</time>
So again, famous deaths provide more colorful characters to come out and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:21</time>
commemorate them, and so you'll get that with Rudolph Valentino, that famous actor.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:26</time>
there was a mysterious lady who would always come to his grave dressed in

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:30</time>
black on the anniversary of his death.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:33</time>
With Edgar Allan Poe, you get the toaster.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:36</time>
So a gentleman who would go on the anniversary of his death-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:39</time>
I believe so

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:40</time>
… and bring three roses and, drink, was it bourbon?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:45</time>
I think it was c- like cognac or something.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:46</time>
Cognac-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:47</time>
Yeah … to him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:48</time>
And leave the, drink half the bottle or take a couple shots and then leave the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:51</time>
rest for him, and did this for years.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:55</time>
How many years was it?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:56</time>
It

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:56</time>
was like dec- decades.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:58</time>
Decades.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:37:58</time>
And then his son did it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:00</time>
Yeah, picked up, so apparently it was, there was probably some

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:03</time>
local people who knew who it was.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:05</time>
So people, even when I was there, there were three dead roses on the grave, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:09</time>
people do it in honorance, in remembrance, right, of not only Poe, but of this

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:13</time>
person who honored Poe for so long.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:16</time>
and so people will leave the three roses.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:17</time>
I d- have not been there on Halloween or his, anniversary of his death.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:22</time>
I bet you cognac is left there as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:24</time>
Yeah, so, so reading my notes here, it looks like the, the toaster tradition

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:28</time>
started 100 years after he passed.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:29</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:30</time>
So in 1949-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:31</time>
Okay

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:31</time>
… someone started it in Baltimore, did it for decades, and then that person passed.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:37</time>
His son picked up the tradition in 2009, did it for a couple more years,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:41</time>
and then I think the locals, I think a local in Baltimore, someone said, "Hey,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:44</time>
now this is kind of officially done."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:46</time>
But now the, they'll, they'll do it during the day.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:48</time>
They'll go on Halloween, they'll go on the anniversary of his death, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:51</time>
I'm sure there's local tour groups and stuff like that, that, that do it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:54</time>
And the three roses are supposed to represent Poe, his

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:56</time>
mother-in-law, and his, his wife.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:59</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:38:59</time>
So it's for Maria and Virginia.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:01</time>
but we've, I mean, we feel the legacy of Poe today.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:05</time>
you especially, I mean, like your family history with Alfred Hitchcock.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:09</time>
Alfred Hitchcock is a Poe fan.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:11</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:11</time>
He said he started to do, "I liked Edgar Allan Poe's stories and so

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:15</time>
I began to write suspense films."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:17</time>
Oh, wow.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:17</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:18</time>
So-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:18</time>
That's a direct, yeah, link there.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:19</time>
The direct link.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:20</time>
Poe has inspired so many of us today when it comes to suspense,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:23</time>
and the macabre, and the Gothic.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:25</time>
I would even say, you know, the reason Stephen King is so popular is because

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:30</time>
it's all the foundation laid by Poe.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:33</time>
And so we celebrate him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:35</time>
It was an honor to visit him, and, if, if you really w- if you wanna

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:38</time>
see the location, don't forget to download our app, historyordrive.com.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:42</time>
I'll take you right there to where he's located in Baltimore.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:45</time>
He's right at the front of the cemetery, and, he's waiting there for you.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:54</time>
As you walk out of the iron gates of the Westminster Burying Ground

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:39:57</time>
and leave Edgar Allan Poe to his eternal rest, the mystery of the man

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:02</time>
still lingers in the Baltimore air.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:05</time>
It is entirely fitting that America's master of horror

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:07</time>
didn't get a neat, tidy ending.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:10</time>
Instead, he left us with an unsolved puzzle, a final chapter written in

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:14</time>
delirium, missing clues, and a legacy that grew from a forgotten, unmarked

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:18</time>
plot into a towering literary monument.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:22</time>
Standing by his gravesite reminds us that while the body may fail, a

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:26</time>
brilliant, tortured mind can echo through the centuries, capturing

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:30</time>
the imagination of every generation that dares to peer into the dark.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:35</time>
If you ever find yourself in Baltimore, take a detour into the shadows,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:37</time>
visit Westminster Hall, and look for the raven carved into the stone.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:41</time>
Pay your respects to the man who taught us how to love a good mystery.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:45</time>
Just keep an eye out for a cloaked stranger carrying three roses.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:49</time>
We'll talk to you next time.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:50</time>
Thank you.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:52</time>
This has been a Walk With History production.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:54</time>
Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Bennie.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:40:58</time>
Episode researched by Jennifer Bennie.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:41:00</time>
Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:41:04</time>
Talk With History is supported by our community at thehistoryroadtrip.com.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:41:10</time>
Make sure you hit that follow button in that podcast player,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:41:13</time>
and we'll talk to you next time

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