Lincoln Conspirator trial Location: Exploring Grant Hall

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:00:17</time>
<p>Welcome to talk with history.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Hello!</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels,</p>
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<p>YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations</p>
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<p>with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.</p>
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<p>Now, Jen, before we get into the whole thing tonight, we have another...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Five star review on Apple podcasts, which I am very excited about because that</p>
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<p>actually, that's one of the things out there that really does help us kind of get</p>
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<p>noticed and moved up in whatever rankings they're out there for, for history.</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>We got a review from nursey Q and this is based on our last Gettysburg ghost.</p>
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<p>Episode says, she said, thank you for the episode.</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Thank you, Susie.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Oh, that was nice.</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>So thank you so much, Susie, for leaving the review that I love it because we love</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>getting that feedback, uh, for a little.</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>The little indie podcasters like us, um, that, that feedback really does help.</p>
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<p>And it kind of does.</p>
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<p>It's nice to know what our audience is, is enjoying out there.</p>
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<p>So thank you so much, Susie.</p>
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<p>Um, for anybody else listening, we love getting reviews.</p>
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<p>If you want to do that on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else, um,</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>hopefully we'll see the review out there somewhere, or you can shoot us an email.</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Um, and you can find our email over at talkwithhistory.</p>
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<p>com.</p>
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<p>Now today.</p>
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<p>We'll be taking you into Grant Hall at Fort McNair, Washington, DC.</p>
<p></p>
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<p>This is the location where the Lincoln assassination conspirator</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>trial was held in 1865.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Now on April 14th, President Lincoln was shot by the infamous</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>John Wilkes Booth, as many of us know, but less than, conspirators</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>sat in that very room that Jen takes us through in our most recent video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>So, so Jen, how did this all come about that you were able to get into Grant Hall?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Because it's on an army</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>base.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Yeah, it's on Fort McNair.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Uh, Fort McNair is the third oldest army installation in the United States, behind</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>West Point and the Carlisle Barracks.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>So, it's pretty historic and old, uh, but, you know, I can get on the base</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>because, uh, I'm a military spouse.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>That's right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Now, you had tried a couple times before.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>I think we'd even tried to bring...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>We tried to bring J.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>D.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>We tried to bring J.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>D.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>on</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>because he was in town.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>And I think, that day, I honestly think they were...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Worried that people were parking on base to go to the Nationals game</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>because Fort McNair is directly beside the baseball stadium And they were</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>and but when I went on this time They were allowing people to park on the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>base to go to the Nationals game.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Yeah I think now it's like a thing now you can park there if you're military</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>They even had a whole section because the game was going on at the same time</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>so I think they kind of like embraced their location and Uh, and I think at</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>that time we had like a new gate guard.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>He</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>didn't quite understand what was happening.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>It was a weekend.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>It was kind of an off time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>But what has happened recently?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:35</time>
<p>Okay, so the third floor of Grant Hall is just recreated of the Lincoln,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>uh, military tribunal that happened.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>So it, that's all it's there for.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:46</time>
<p>And so they want people to see it and visit it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>The issue is the rest of the building is used for the National Defense University.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>It's used for the African American studies.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>And so people are in there doing their, the professors are in there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>There's a couple of work ends and so they don't really want people traipsing up</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>and cause it's three floors, no elevator.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>It's a historic building.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>And so they don't want people in there during working hours.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>So.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>They have an amazing PAO there, and you can call...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>That's Public Affairs Officer.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Public Affairs Officer.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:19</time>
<p>So if you get on the website, you can call that number, and she will let you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>know of the, they have civilian times, where they, you get yourself on a list.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>They'll meet you at the gate.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>They'll get you onto the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>base.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And I believe that they even mentioned kind of like the more</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>public dates on the website.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>She's kind of plan around that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>So if you're interested, we'll put a link in the description</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>of the show notes description.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And we did the same thing in our video on YouTube.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Um, but you got ahold of the public affairs officer and she was.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Super</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>excited about it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:48</time>
<p>She was super excited.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:49</time>
<p>I, I told her I had base access.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:50</time>
<p>I'll meet you at Grant Hall.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:51</time>
<p>And she's like, yeah, I'll take you up.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:52</time>
<p>She has the key.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:53</time>
<p>She goes, you can film and do whatever you want.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:55</time>
<p>Shout out to the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>public affairs officer at Fort McNair.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:57</time>
<p>She was super helpful.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Very excited about, you know, very nice.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>She was great.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Um, and we were really excited.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>She lives in Annapolis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And well, and then the nice thing was is that you kind of got your</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>own personal tour of the space and for, for making the video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And after anybody listening, listen to this podcast, I encourage you to go check</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:05:15</time>
<p>out the video because we do, we took our time kind of really painting the picture</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:05:19</time>
<p>for what the building used to look like compared to what it looks like now.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:05:24</time>
<p>I spent probably like a good couple hours trying to figure</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>out the best way to frame that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And I took an old picture and I show very clearly.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>where you were standing and what remains of grant hall.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Cause it used to be a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:35</time>
<p>penitentiary.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:36</time>
<p>So it used to be a penitentiary built in 1829 and it was a huge penitentiary.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:42</time>
<p>Um, but it doesn't really gain its notoriety until 1865 when</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:48</time>
<p>this military tribunal happens.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:50</time>
<p>What was nice about having it to myself and you'll see in the video</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:53</time>
<p>is when people come and visit.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:56</time>
<p>It's packed small.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:58</time>
<p>It's small.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:58</time>
<p>And so, and they have reenactors in there and it's just, it would be hard</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:02</time>
<p>to film with so many people around and walking around and reading everything.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:07</time>
<p>One thing they do have, and you'll see in the video is where</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:10</time>
<p>the military tribunal sits.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:12</time>
<p>So they are, there are.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:14</time>
<p>Uh, nine gentlemen, they have their pictures there, uh, around the table.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:21</time>
<p>So those nine gentlemen are identified.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:23</time>
<p>Now this military tribunal is nine because they've using this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:28</time>
<p>kind of number system for guilty.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:31</time>
<p>And for execution, if you're found guilty, it has to be majority.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:35</time>
<p>So five over four, and then for execution, it has to be two thirds, six out of nine.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:41</time>
<p>So they've tried to make it very basic numbers here.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:43</time>
<p>It's not beyond a shadow of a doubt.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:47</time>
<p>It's not full amount of people.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:49</time>
<p>It is just majority and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:51</time>
<p>two thirds.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:52</time>
<p>Well, and that's different than I think you mentioned it briefly in</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:56</time>
<p>the video, but we, you don't go too deep into it in this particular</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:58</time>
<p>one, but there was some controversy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:02</time>
<p>you know, around the fact that this was a military tribunal and not a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:05</time>
<p>civilian court.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:06</time>
<p>So President Johnson, he got his attorney general who told him,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:11</time>
<p>uh, let's do a military tribunal.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:13</time>
<p>It'll be faster.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:14</time>
<p>It'll be easier.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:15</time>
<p>And this happened during wartime.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:18</time>
<p>And because this happened during wartime, we can, even though these are civilians,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:23</time>
<p>they acted in a war like action, uh, assassinating a, the commander in chief.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:30</time>
<p>And so we can We can try them in a military tribunal, then you get the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:34</time>
<p>secretary of war who's like, no, this has to be done in a civilian court.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:38</time>
<p>Um, but Johnson's whole mindset is he wants it done fast, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:44</time>
<p>Because Lincoln is buried at the beginning of May.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:47</time>
<p>The trial basically starts the beginning of May.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:49</time>
<p>He wants this done.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:51</time>
<p>The country wants an answer.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:54</time>
<p>They want.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:55</time>
<p>Uh, and they want their justice.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:57</time>
<p>Well, and even if you think about it, right, even</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:00</time>
<p>Lincoln wanted the nation to heal.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:03</time>
<p>Mm hmm.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:04</time>
<p>Right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:04</time>
<p>And you've talked about this in some other videos.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:06</time>
<p>And Lincoln didn't, um...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:08</time>
<p>Want any malice.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:08</time>
<p>He didn't want any malice.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:10</time>
<p>Like, he wasn't trying to execute a bunch of Confederate soldiers</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:13</time>
<p>or generals or anything like that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:14</time>
<p>He didn't call for any of that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:15</time>
<p>So...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:16</time>
<p>Johnson, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:17</time>
<p>Obviously, previous vice president, now president, I assume that they had</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:22</time>
<p>been had those discussions together and he was kind of carrying that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:26</time>
<p>Sentiment forward and he was trying to say like hey this Lincoln wanted</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:31</time>
<p>this to heal in order to heal We have to get past all this tragedy And this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:35</time>
<p>was like almost the high point one of the high points of tragedy of the war</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:39</time>
<p>when you think about it It's so immediate Appomattox is</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:42</time>
<p>happening in April the beginning of April And then the president is</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:47</time>
<p>assassinated in the middle of April.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:49</time>
<p>Then he's basically buried the beginning of May and they're going to start</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:52</time>
<p>this trial again the middle of May.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:55</time>
<p>So it's happening quickly.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:57</time>
<p>Yeah, he</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:57</time>
<p>gets buried like on May 3rd or 4th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:59</time>
<p>May 4th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:00</time>
<p>And then the tribunal starts on May 10th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:02</time>
<p>Yeah, so what happens is on May 1st, President Johnson issues the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:07</time>
<p>order for the conspirators to be tried.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:09</time>
<p>And using a military commission.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:11</time>
<p>And then on May 9th, everyone has read their charges.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:14</time>
<p>So people go to their cell doors.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:17</time>
<p>They take off their hoods.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:19</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:19</time>
<p>And you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:20</time>
<p>show that,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:20</time>
<p>yeah, we show some pictures.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:21</time>
<p>So they take the hoods off and read their charges.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:23</time>
<p>But what's interesting is like the trial starts May 12th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:26</time>
<p>So three days later.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:27</time>
<p>So they have lawyers in this, and I show you where the lawyers sit on those two</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:31</time>
<p>tables, kind of in front of the accused.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:34</time>
<p>They have three days to prepare their case.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:37</time>
<p>You know, it's funny that you mention that because one of the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:39</time>
<p>scenes, there was a movie made, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:41</time>
<p>And I didn't include too many clips of it because we were trying to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:44</time>
<p>really show the space more than focus on, you know, the kind of the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:47</time>
<p>controversy around a lot of this stuff.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:49</time>
<p>But one of the scenes that I was watching as I was kind of doing my</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:53</time>
<p>editor portion of the research was the lawyer for, uh, Mary Surratt, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:58</time>
<p>The kind of the main character, at least in the movie.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:01</time>
<p>Sure.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:01</time>
<p>He's arguing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:03</time>
<p>you know, for kind of a delay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:04</time>
<p>I forget what the technical term is, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:07</time>
<p>You know, for, for a stay or something like that because he needs time, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:11</time>
<p>And that's what he's foot stomping.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:12</time>
<p>He's like, this, this just happened.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:14</time>
<p>Like, you know, I need time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:16</time>
<p>Now, obviously he's kind of playing a bit of the antagonist because</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:22</time>
<p>everybody wants this to be done and everybody kind of knows who's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:24</time>
<p>guilty and this, that and the other.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:26</time>
<p>But he's trying to, I think in his eyes, trying to do the right thing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:29</time>
<p>Sure.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:30</time>
<p>So there is, there is some controversy there, but at the same time, it's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:33</time>
<p>just moving fast because when things are in the military, you can do that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:36</time>
<p>Sure.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:37</time>
<p>And they're also playing on that gender politics because Mary Surratt</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:41</time>
<p>will be the first woman executed, you know, by the federal government</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:45</time>
<p>within the means of the law.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:47</time>
<p>And so even in the seven week trial, they get 371 witnesses.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:53</time>
<p>So it's not like they can't find people who want to talk about this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:56</time>
<p>I think, right, this is big news.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:59</time>
<p>And when you have these eight accused, right, you get Samuel Arnold, George S.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:03</time>
<p>Surratt, David Harold, Samuel Mudd, Michael O.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:07</time>
<p>Laughlin, uh, Louis Powell, Edmund Spangler, and Mary Surratt.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:10</time>
<p>When people see their names in the paper, they're like, Oh, I</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:13</time>
<p>know that person, or I talked to that person, or I saw that person.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:16</time>
<p>And you get people on both sides, character witnesses.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:19</time>
<p>People who saw the peop uh, you know, Booth and Mudd's house, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:24</time>
<p>You're gonna get people who saw Booth and Mudd meet at the church</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:27</time>
<p>months before this happened, just to show that they knew each other.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:30</time>
<p>Like, you're gonna get those kind of testimonies.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:33</time>
<p>I think people wanted to come forward and give them.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:35</time>
<p>Sure.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:36</time>
<p>So they probably found their ways there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:38</time>
<p>And so I show you in the video where witnesses stood.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:42</time>
<p>So they stood in that big wooden box facing the military tribunal and they</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:47</time>
<p>have the accused off to their left.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:49</time>
<p>They have the recorder to the right and behind them as a press table.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:52</time>
<p>I think the press table is almost the biggest table and the press</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:58</time>
<p>was allowed to be in there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:59</time>
<p>And of course, every day they're turning out news.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:01</time>
<p>Uh, with the drawings associated with it, with the hoods and all the things.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:05</time>
<p>And that's how we have a lot of the recreations.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:07</time>
<p>recreations.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:08</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:08</time>
<p>That's it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:09</time>
<p>And I don't know when they redid the space.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:12</time>
<p>So what happened was, you know, this was just considered</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:16</time>
<p>a working penitentiary, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:18</time>
<p>And I, and even we'll talk about the outcomes, but even when the accuser.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:24</time>
<p>It's basically out the front door.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:26</time>
<p>Oh, yeah, right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:27</time>
<p>They just take you out the front door Yeah, and they do it right there And</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:31</time>
<p>so it basically it's as long as it takes them to build the scaffolding</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:35</time>
<p>because they're building it from nothing So it's just a working space so what</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:39</time>
<p>happens is in 1881 the penitentiary is closed and It's basically all sections</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:47</time>
<p>are pretty much demolished except for that eastern section and then from</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:52</time>
<p>1901 to 1914 it's used as a school.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:55</time>
<p>Late 1900 is when it gets the name Grant Hall.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
<p>They actually changed it to Grant Hall because now it's just one</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:02</time>
<p>building and it's not even until 1940.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:06</time>
<p>Eight that the base changes to Fort McNair because McNair is a World War II general.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:12</time>
<p>So you're getting this change happening around and you're getting</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:16</time>
<p>this honoring of history, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:18</time>
<p>Now people are starting to, Oh, maybe we should save these things now.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:24</time>
<p>After it's used as a school, it's used as a barracks and it's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:27</time>
<p>kind of made into officer spaces.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:30</time>
<p>And the PAO was telling me, there'll be people who come in</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:33</time>
<p>and be like, I lived up here.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:34</time>
<p>Really?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:35</time>
<p>There was a kitchen right there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:36</time>
<p>There was a bathroom right there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:37</time>
<p>Like they lived there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:39</time>
<p>Oh, interesting.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:40</time>
<p>Right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:40</time>
<p>So they, it was like, it was a, Barracks for officers.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:44</time>
<p>And so it was in 1996 that the barracks was handed over to the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:49</time>
<p>National Defense University.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:52</time>
<p>And the professors were in there and it was just a derelict building and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:58</time>
<p>they were, it was got up for demolished because they weren't gonna fix it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:02</time>
<p>All the things that needed was so old, but it was a professor who</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:06</time>
<p>realized how important that third floor was and went to Congress</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:11</time>
<p>and actually got a grant, uh, his.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:13</time>
<p>historical grant to fix that third floor and preserve that building.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:17</time>
<p>That's so interesting.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
<p>So thank God for that professor who saw how important of a historic</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
<p>artifact the whole third floor is, uh, to American history.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:27</time>
<p>That's why it's saved today.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:28</time>
<p>Well, and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:28</time>
<p>it just goes to show, even just you talking about that right, right now, right</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:32</time>
<p>in the military and it's just in general.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:36</time>
<p>This country needed some run time before it started really trying to like</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:40</time>
<p>save, save some of its history, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:42</time>
<p>Because we're such a young country compared to many countries</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:44</time>
<p>around the, around the world, many nations around the world.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:47</time>
<p>You know, we're only a couple hundred years old compared to, you know,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:49</time>
<p>thousands, you know, for, for others.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:51</time>
<p>Leave it to, to someone in, in the late 90s, early 2000s to say like,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:55</time>
<p>Hey, that, that space up there, that's kind of, there's a pretty</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:58</time>
<p>significant event that happened.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:59</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:00</time>
<p>You know, and he may have been looking at the old pictures too.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:02</time>
<p>He's like, You know what?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:03</time>
<p>I bet that's where, where it happened.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:05</time>
<p>And that's, and that's what they they did.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:07</time>
<p>And it</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:07</time>
<p>didn't look like that then even when they saved it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:09</time>
<p>Right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:10</time>
<p>So they, they redid it to make it look how it did.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:13</time>
<p>Right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:13</time>
<p>That's why I kind of mentioned it in the video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:16</time>
<p>It's been redone to look like it did</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:18</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:18</time>
<p>Well, well,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
<p>and everything's new.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:20</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:20</time>
<p>You can</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:20</time>
<p>tell.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:21</time>
<p>And they, they actually wanted to use it for the mirror, for the movie.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:24</time>
<p>But it wasn't ready in time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:25</time>
<p>Oh, really?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:26</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:26</time>
<p>So Robert Redford was kind of upset because he wanted to use the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:29</time>
<p>actual third floor, but it wasn't, it hadn't been finished in time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:32</time>
<p>A classic government contract.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:34</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:34</time>
<p>I don't think it was done until 2012.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:36</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:37</time>
<p>So it wasn't finished in time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:38</time>
<p>So, but they do have a bunch of the artifacts from the movie up there and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:41</time>
<p>I show some of those, uh, in the video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:44</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:45</time>
<p>It's really neat.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:45</time>
<p>We, so let's talk a little bit about the accused.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:50</time>
<p>What's interesting is when I walk in and there's a it's basically they're</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:56</time>
<p>kind of higher up and they have a wooden bar or a blockade in front of them.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:02</time>
<p>Think about</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:02</time>
<p>a modern day court where the jury sits.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:04</time>
<p>Yeah, that's kind of where they accused were sitting.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:07</time>
<p>Yeah, there was eight of them,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:08</time>
<p>eight of them and they it was a guard between each of them so</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:11</time>
<p>they couldn't speak to each other.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:12</time>
<p>So it's kind of On, unlike a plain bench.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:14</time>
<p>And that's kinda why they're spread out.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:16</time>
<p>And their pictures are also displayed like the, the members of the military tribunal,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
<p>their pictures are also displayed.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:22</time>
<p>And then Mary Surat is at the very end on her own because she's separated.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:27</time>
<p>And then there's a gate against the wall, kind of like a gate door to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:31</time>
<p>show you that was the door to the penitentiary, to the rest of the building.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:35</time>
<p>So the civilians would come up the way.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:38</time>
<p>You would come up to visit and not the civilians, but like the, the tribunal,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:43</time>
<p>the people who are not accused.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:44</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:45</time>
<p>And they would all sit.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:46</time>
<p>And then the penitentiary, the accused would come through that penitentiary door</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:49</time>
<p>and not pass that basic parishion, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:53</time>
<p>So keep them over to the other side.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:55</time>
<p>And so that's kind of how they.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:58</time>
<p>Kind of, again, kind of separated them</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:00</time>
<p>in the space.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:01</time>
<p>Yeah, and again, if you, if you watch our video, we show a couple times, and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:04</time>
<p>it's, it's pretty clear in the thumbnail, the reason, basically behind that door,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:09</time>
<p>you know, if you tried to walk out of it today, you would walk out of the building</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:12</time>
<p>and, and fall out of the building.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:14</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:14</time>
<p>But there was a whole huge prison.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:17</time>
<p>There was a huge, yes, prison.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:17</time>
<p>You know, weighing behind that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:18</time>
<p>So they would stay over there, they would walk up, and they would</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:21</time>
<p>just walk right into this room.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:22</time>
<p>Mm hmm.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:23</time>
<p>And,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:23</time>
<p>um, honestly, they were, like, their hands were put in these, uh, handcuffs</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:28</time>
<p>that kind of separated their hands.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:29</time>
<p>Couldn't even touch your hands together.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:31</time>
<p>They wear these hoods, where you couldn't, you couldn't even look out under.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:35</time>
<p>They basically, and they ball, they put a ball and chain on their ankle.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:38</time>
<p>So that's kind of how they were imprisoned the whole time they were in prison.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:41</time>
<p>Which is not long, when you think about it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:43</time>
<p>Because...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:44</time>
<p>Yeah, less than a month.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:44</time>
<p>The sentence is handed down June 30th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:48</time>
<p>So of the eight, you're going to have four executions.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:52</time>
<p>You're going to have Asarat, Harold, Powell, and Sarat.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:56</time>
<p>And if you watch our video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
<p>The night that Lincoln was assassinated, we go through the whole story, what</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:02</time>
<p>everybody was doing that night.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:04</time>
<p>I'll link that in the show notes as well.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:05</time>
<p>So all four are directly involved with Booth.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:10</time>
<p>All four, I, I, you can see why these four are executed.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:14</time>
<p>Even Mary Surratt.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:15</time>
<p>And this is like, even in the movie The Conspirator, this is the whole</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:18</time>
<p>question, was she guilty, was she not?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:20</time>
<p>Um, but there's no...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:22</time>
<p>way you can deny the evidence that what she was involved in.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:25</time>
<p>She wasn't just providing the boarding house where they met.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:28</time>
<p>There's more that she did.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:30</time>
<p>Um, and then you get Arnold, Mudd, and, uh, Laughlin who get life in prison.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:38</time>
<p>And they basically are tied to Booth.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:43</time>
<p>Mudd, we know for sure he sets his leg, but they're tied to Booth.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:46</time>
<p>They help with the kidnapping conspiracy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:48</time>
<p>Because before this became an assassination, Uh, attempt</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:53</time>
<p>and, and, uh, and actually, you know, was an assassination.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:56</time>
<p>They wanted to kidnap Lincoln.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:58</time>
<p>The whole plan was to kidnap Lincoln and, and then ransom him for, you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:04</time>
<p>know, the South to just be left alone.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:06</time>
<p>For the South to just, you know, form their own country.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:10</time>
<p>And there was a lot of push in the trial to tie Jefferson Davis</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:17</time>
<p>to ordering this kidnapping plot.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:21</time>
<p>So when did you meet with Davis?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:22</time>
<p>How well did you know Davis?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:24</time>
<p>I mean, were they ever able to try and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:26</time>
<p>prove any of that?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:27</time>
<p>They weren't.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:27</time>
<p>And because the accused will not testify.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:32</time>
<p>Right, they're not gonna so it's only people what they heard what they and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:35</time>
<p>again the people who more than likely are coming forth to testify Want to see</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:41</time>
<p>them pay the price for what they've done.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:44</time>
<p>I think if anybody is a Loyalist to the south.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:47</time>
<p>They're probably not coming forward to testify About their character.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:53</time>
<p>Although you do get Mary Surratt's enslaved woman who comes forth to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:57</time>
<p>testify about her character as a good enslaver Yes And then you get one</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:04</time>
<p>person who helps with the horse, the runaway horse, a spangler, the horse</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:09</time>
<p>for food.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:10</time>
<p>Yeah, he's the guy that you were saying in the video, he basically</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:12</time>
<p>just like held the horse for him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:13</time>
<p>He held the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:14</time>
<p>horse for him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:14</time>
<p>He gets six years hard labor.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:17</time>
<p>Uh, six years.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
<p>Right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
<p>Aiding and abetting.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:19</time>
<p>They were not messing around.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:21</time>
<p>So, and then the execution, so they, they hand out, you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:26</time>
<p>know, everyone is found guilty.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:27</time>
<p>Again, that only takes five of the nine.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:30</time>
<p>And then for the executions, they're all, the four executions take six of the nine.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:35</time>
<p>And this is June 30th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:36</time>
<p>They're all executed July 7th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:39</time>
<p>So here you have what, seven days?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:41</time>
<p>to build a gallows for four because they're going to hang</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:44</time>
<p>them all at the same time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:45</time>
<p>Yep.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:46</time>
<p>And Mary Surratt will be the first woman.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:49</time>
<p>And</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:49</time>
<p>those are all you see a lot of the famous pictures.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:52</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:52</time>
<p>Pretty well known pictures.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:53</time>
<p>And you mentioned a couple of them, um, one before the conspirators, you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:59</time>
<p>know, kind of got up there on the, on the gallows kind of stage per se.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:04</time>
<p>Um, then there's the other one where they're standing up there,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:06</time>
<p>another one with the umbrella.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:08</time>
<p>Yeah, they're kind of held over.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:10</time>
<p>They're kind of shading Mary Surratt.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:12</time>
<p>It was interesting.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:13</time>
<p>She had her priests come up there and And give her her last</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:16</time>
<p>rites, but I know it's like until they till they kill her They're still</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:21</time>
<p>giving her some feminine decorum.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:23</time>
<p>Yeah,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:24</time>
<p>basically.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:24</time>
<p>Yeah, and you can actually find a picture of them hanging</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:27</time>
<p>yes, and so It's an interesting concept because it's like a whole</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:31</time>
<p>platform just kind of falls away.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:33</time>
<p>So even if you were standing on that platform, you just</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:35</time>
<p>like fall away to the ground.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:36</time>
<p>Yeah, hopefully nobody else was standing up there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:38</time>
<p>It's not like four doors.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:39</time>
<p>It's like the whole half of the stage is going to fall away.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:42</time>
<p>After the execution, they actually bury him just.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:45</time>
<p>Right</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:45</time>
<p>there right to the side.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:46</time>
<p>It's basically not even, you know, 10 feet away.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:49</time>
<p>And what's interesting is they bury them all right there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:52</time>
<p>And I think Booth is also put with them, his body because they have</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:55</time>
<p>his body from when they shot him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:57</time>
<p>I don't think I realized that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:58</time>
<p>And so it's but then it's about four years later, President Johnson were allowed</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:05</time>
<p>their families to have their bodies back.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:07</time>
<p>And it's about it's that time as well 1869 that he's going to commute the sentences.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:13</time>
<p>of Mudd and Spangler and, um, Arnold and, oh, oh, Lachlan.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:20</time>
<p>I think one of them had already died in prison, but the other</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:24</time>
<p>ones live out some of their lives.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:26</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:26</time>
<p>And Mudd, I mean, he had actually done, you know, tried to kind of keep</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:29</time>
<p>doing his doctoring thing, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:31</time>
<p>He, we cover him a little bit in our, we, you visit his house.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:35</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:36</time>
<p>Uh, on a day that the house wasn't actually open.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:38</time>
<p>So you visit the front gate to his house, but we talk all about kind of his case and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:42</time>
<p>how he actually knew Mudd and he actually.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:45</time>
<p>Claimed that he didn't, but he had met him</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:47</time>
<p>previously.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:48</time>
<p>He knew him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:48</time>
<p>He helped him get a horse.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:49</time>
<p>He knew who, he knew who.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:50</time>
<p>He did.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
<p>They</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
<p>knew each other.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
<p>And, um.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:52</time>
<p>I don't think he knew who was going to show up at his door that night.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:55</time>
<p>Right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:56</time>
<p>But when he did show up at his door, he knew who he was.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:59</time>
<p>Yeah,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:00</time>
<p>and so that's actually a really good video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:01</time>
<p>If you're curious to kind of watch a couple of videos on this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:03</time>
<p>We have the, the Lincoln assassination, the night of.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:06</time>
<p>We kind of walk all through D.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:08</time>
<p>C.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:08</time>
<p>We show you all the spots where all that happened.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:10</time>
<p>We have this Grant Hall one.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:11</time>
<p>We have the Dr.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:12</time>
<p>Mudd video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:13</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:14</time>
<p>We'd love to do some other ones, but we have a couple good ones.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:16</time>
<p>We</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:16</time>
<p>do.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:16</time>
<p>And so it was, uh, O'Loughlin, who he's sentenced to life in prison,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:22</time>
<p>sent to Fort Jefferson, and he dies of yellow fever in 1867.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:26</time>
<p>So he doesn't get to have his, uh, sentences, sentence commuted.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:30</time>
<p>Samuel Arnold does.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:31</time>
<p>He survives to 1906.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:33</time>
<p>He dies of tuberculosis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:35</time>
<p>Of course, we know Mudd.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:36</time>
<p>He is, uh, pardoned, but he dies of pneumonia in 1883 at his house.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:41</time>
<p>There where we visit and then Edmund Spangler He is also part in and he remains</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:46</time>
<p>in Maryland until his death in 1875</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:48</time>
<p>Yeah, and you said the movie the conspirators is actually pretty good.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:51</time>
<p>It's actually</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:51</time>
<p>very good I would recommend watching it because they actually</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:54</time>
<p>go into all of these individuals and More about their lives and the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:58</time>
<p>people who play them are very good</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:04</time>
<p>the funnest part about this video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:06</time>
<p>We talked about it afterwards It's it's a little bit less about The event itself,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:11</time>
<p>and it's really more of a show and tell.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:12</time>
<p>Yeah, it's about the space.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:13</time>
<p>It's about the space.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:14</time>
<p>It was really neat just to see...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:16</time>
<p>Just to be in the space.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:16</time>
<p>And I, and I think we ended up doing a pretty good job, because the video's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:20</time>
<p>doing okay, um, of really showing you...</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:24</time>
<p>And showing the viewers what it used to look like and what it looks like today.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:28</time>
<p>So you get a really good feel for when you're standing there at the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:31</time>
<p>corner of what are now tennis courts that are being revamped or whatever.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:35</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:35</time>
<p>That's right where the gals were.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:37</time>
<p>Right at the tennis court corner.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:38</time>
<p>Right at the tennis court corner.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:39</time>
<p>And then just down the way, and we can show, we show you the picture</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:42</time>
<p>so you have a really good mental picture when you look at that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
<p>And it was really neat to watch this and just be like, Oh my gosh, right there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:49</time>
<p>Like that's where they said like, okay, pull, pull the bulls and boom.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:53</time>
<p>Those people were executed and they were buried just, just over there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:56</time>
<p>And then in that space, all of those conspirators were sitting in there, you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:03</time>
<p>know, and the military tribunal and all of the stuff that came out of there, the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:06</time>
<p>pictures that we have today were drawn in</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:09</time>
<p>that room.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:10</time>
<p>Well, the PAO says she gets picked people all the time who want to take</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:13</time>
<p>a picture by like the window where the conspirators were sitting because it's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:17</time>
<p>such a, that went in Harper's Weekly.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:20</time>
<p>Like that was a.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:21</time>
<p>very popular drawing of the space.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:24</time>
<p>And so people want to take a picture right there, right beside like the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:29</time>
<p>stove with the pipe going through.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:31</time>
<p>And they, it, it looks just like it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:34</time>
<p>And you're, and I, I also love to stand right with the witnesses.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:38</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:38</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:39</time>
<p>You do in the video.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:40</time>
<p>She lets you kind of go back there and you're standing</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:41</time>
<p>where the witness is stood.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:42</time>
<p>You're actually back in the bench area where the conspirators sat.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:46</time>
<p>So that was one of the really cool things.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:47</time>
<p>And if you're listening to this and this sounds interesting to you, this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:50</time>
<p>is, this is a couple great videos that I think you would really, really enjoy</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:54</time>
<p>for our, for our listeners out there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:56</time>
<p>So again, this was fun.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:57</time>
<p>I was bummed I didn't get to tag along on this one because I think</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:00</time>
<p>it would have been fun to be inside the space for those listening.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:03</time>
<p>Please go check out the video because I think you would really enjoy it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:05</time>
<p>It's pretty short, um, a lot shorter than, than this podcast and, uh,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:10</time>
<p>it'll, it'll give us, you know, that one more step towards, uh, beating</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:14</time>
<p>the history channel, as we always say.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:15</time>
<p>So thank you this afternoon for listening to the Talk With History</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:20</time>
<p>podcast and please reach out to us at our website talkwithhistory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:23</time>
<p>com.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:24</time>
<p>More importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:26</time>
<p>podcast, please share it with them, especially if you think today's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:29</time>
<p>topic would interest a friend.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:30</time>
<p>Shoot em a text.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:32</time>
<p>Send them a link to this particular episode and tell them to look up the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:34</time>
<p>Talk With History podcast because we rely on you, our community, to grow</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:38</time>
<p>and we appreciate you all every day.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:40</time>
<p>We'll talk to you next time.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>