Robert E. Lee's Gravesite & Legacy | Hidden History in Lexington - Talk With History

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Welcome to Talk With History.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Hello.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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world travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history

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through deeper conversations with the curious, the explorers, and

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the history lovers out there.

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Now, before we get into our main topic today, I do want to ask for

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folks to leave us some reviews.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Those always help the show.

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So you can drop us a review on Apple podcast.

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You can reply to the polls on Spotify or drop us some stars over there.

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It really does help the show grow.

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Today's episode takes us south to the beautiful town of Lexington,

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Virginia, in the historic campus of Washington and Lee University.

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But, this isn't your typical college campus tour.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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We're heading to a place steeped in controversy in Civil War

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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history, the Lee Chapel, where Confederate General Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Lee himself is buried.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Lee, a complex and fascinating figure, remains a powerful symbol for many.

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Love him or loathe him, his story is undeniably woven into

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the fabric of American history.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Join us as we explore the Lee Chapel.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Delve into Lee's life and legacy and unpack the ongoing debate

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surrounding this confederate icon.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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All right, Jen.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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So this, this was one of those graves that we made the effort to get out to

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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go see because I mean, you can't, in American history, the kind of giants

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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of history, whether controversial or not, don't get too much bigger.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Yeah, when we talk about the Civil War, and it's still a huge subject

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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today, I even get people who don't like me to use the term Civil War.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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They want to hear war between states.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And you'll find that depicted on a lot of things.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's even still on the Iwo Jima Memorial, says the war between the states.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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So when you're talking about the leaders of And that moment in history, it's always

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Lincoln, Jefferson Davis, Grant, and Lee.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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And it's, it's one of those things that we try to do, and I will

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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both of us on the back for this because we do our best to give context to the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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historical events of the historical figures that we're covering Either in

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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a video or on a podcast, and that is a very tricky thing to do without appearing

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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to lean one way or the other on a ton of topic, but context is so important.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Now, this is a relatively simple event that you and I did.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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We went and visited the graveside of someone well known, but there's so much

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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context surrounding him that There's been many books written about, Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Well, I think the issue that people have, and I'm just conjuring this, is if

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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you try to give any positive annotations about something that was so controversial

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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and negative, that you're looking as if you condoned that person's entire history.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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actions and their resume, and that's not true.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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If you look at a sculptor or a painting and you say that's a well

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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done painting or that's a well done sculptor even if it's of a controversial

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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figure, you're not saying that you agree with that figure and every

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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historic action that figure ever took.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And so that's where the issue.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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lies is, as a historian, we have to, we have to point out the truth.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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We have to point out the facts.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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So if you're pointing to, in this instance, Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Lee's grave and the sculpture of him on top of it, and it is well done.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's a great depiction of him.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's very human like it does look like he's sleeping.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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But if you point out that it's a well done sculpture, people will

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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jump on when you must like Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And that's not true.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And it wouldn't, it wouldn't matter if it was true or not.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Historically, it doesn't matter if I like Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:31</time>
Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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What matters is I'm pointing out that the sculpture is well done.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And that is a fact.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And so to Those are the things that are hard for historians and we try,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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we try to just give you all the facts and the context of what is happening,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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when it's happening, who is making it, why it looks the way it does, and then

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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you can decide how you feel about it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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My feeling about it should have no bearing on how you feel about something.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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My feelings about something As a historian should just be like, I want to make sure

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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you have all the information out there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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That's primary sourced period.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It shouldn't matter what side those sources come from.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's just you have it all at your disposal to make your decisions.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And so when we talk about controversial figures, Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:20</time>
Lee is one of them.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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His Embeddedness in American history and American culture cannot be removed.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:27</time>
And so we are going to give him his due diligence and his due part and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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talk about him and tell you the facts of the end of his life and the after

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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his his life after the civil war and we'll talk to a little bit of before

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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the Civil War because it has an impact on what he ends up after the Civil War.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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But we're gonna, we're gonna tell the truth about all of it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And that's where we went and visited.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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So this was part of our kind of larger trip last October, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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We had done some Western Virginia history, some Hatfields McCoys, which was very fun.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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If you're listening to this, we have a past episode podcast episode on the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Hatfield McCoys locations that we visited.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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So I encourage you to go back and listen to that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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But we were driving back home.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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to, to Norfolk and we went through Lexington to Washington Lee University.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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you have to realize Lexington, Virginia is very Western Virginia.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's not anything we ever hit driving up and down to D.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:27</time>
C.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's not like going to Richmond.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Richmond was easier to hit.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Lexington was one of those oh, that's pretty out there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:34</time>
So the only way we really, visited, and we only visited this one time, was on our

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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way back from being in eastern Kentucky.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Lexington, Virginia is a very historic town.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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VMI is there, which was our first time visiting the VMI campus.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It was very cool.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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We also visited the graves of Stonewall Jackson.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Stonewall Jackson's house is there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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And then, I would say they share a border, VMI and Washington and Lee University.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's like they're right beside each other.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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So we couldn't, we, to visit Lee's grave, he's buried on the campus

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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of Washington and Lee University.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Washington, I didn't realize how long Washington and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Lee University has been around now.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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Obviously it wasn't always Washington and Lee University.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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It started off as just Washington University.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's a private, private liberal arts college in Lexington, Virginia.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It was established in 1749 as Augusta Academy.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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It's one of the oldest institutions.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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institutions of higher learning in the United States.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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They eventually were name it after George Washington and that's where it got its

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:44</time>
name, Washington University and had that name for a very long time until Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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Lee comes to be president of the school, and it's even after Lee's death that

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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they add the Lee to become Washington and Lee University, but it goes by

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:03</time>
Augusta Academy until 1776, then it's Liberty Hall Academy to 1796, and then

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:12</time>
it's In 1796 before Washington's death it becomes Washington Academy until

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:18</time>
the war of 1812, then it's Washington College at, at, at 1813 until 1870 when

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:24</time>
it becomes Washington and Lee University.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:27</time>
it's, it's pretty wild to me because right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:29</time>
As someone like myself, I went to the Naval Academy, that's been

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:32</time>
around for quite some time, 1845, 1850, . The West Point has been

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:37</time>
around, a few years longer than that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
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This is like a hundred years.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:41</time>
Before both of those were founded so it was it was pretty incredible

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:45</time>
to go beautiful campus But we went there with kind of one goal in mind

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:49</time>
and that was to go visit robert e lee's I guess really his crypt.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:53</time>
Is that what you would call it?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:59</time>
Yeah, definitely his family crypt.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:01</time>
So in the fall of 1865, the financially ruined former general

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:07</time>
of the Confederacy, Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:08</time>
Lee, was offered several business opportunities, but instead

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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he chose to accept to become Washington College's president.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:15</time>
And he stated that he chose that to become the college's president

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:20</time>
because he had a desire to train young men to do their duty.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:24</time>
And during his tenure, he established the first journalism course.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:28</time>
He added engineering courses, a business school, a law school.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:31</time>
I think we remember his office was in the downstairs of the chapel.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:36</time>
He met with every student at the time who were male to be good gentlemen,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:42</time>
He said they had no strict rules, but that was really the one guideline

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:46</time>
Now one of the things that you also brought up during the video Was part

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:50</time>
of the reason he accepted this position was he couldn't go back to arlington

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:00</time>
Yes, so let's, we talked about that in another video and I think

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:04</time>
it's important that people understand this Arlington National Cemetery.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:09</time>
is originally Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:12</time>
Lee's home.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:13</time>
His plantation Arlington house was his house where he lived with

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:19</time>
his wife, Mary Ann Custis Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:23</time>
And if you hear the name Custis, it's because she is a descendant of

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:29</time>
George Washington Custis who is a, a descendant of George Washington's

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:36</time>
adopted children from his wife, Martha Custis, her first husband's Custis.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:43</time>
They had two children together when George marries her.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:46</time>
And I want it understood he married her and he owns everything

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:51</time>
the Custis family owned.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:54</time>
The Custis don't hold on to any property after they are

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:58</time>
married to George Washington.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:00</time>
It doesn't work that way in colonial

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:02</time>
It goes to the husband

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:03</time>
goes to the man.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:05</time>
It doesn't stay in some kind of trust fund for the Custis family.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:09</time>
Now what George Washington did is he recognized the land

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:13</time>
that came with the children.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:14</time>
He knows what land was their father's land.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:17</time>
So he makes sure that their inheritance includes their father's land.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:23</time>
I think he, he is, I mean, it probably just happened via

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:26</time>
the marriage, but I think he was.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:28</time>
intentional about, some sort of formalization of his

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:31</time>
adoption Of of the children

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:34</time>
Well, the thing is so people ask that sometimes at Mount

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:37</time>
Vernon, did he adopt the children?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:39</time>
And the truth is he doesn't have to formally adopt the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:43</time>
children like we do today.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:44</time>
That doesn't happen.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:46</time>
It was just it was just part of it was part of the whole package Right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:49</time>
It's part of the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:50</time>
When you marry, you're adopting the children.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:53</time>
Now what he did do is he recognizes them as his lineage, as his descendants.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:00</time>
What I was inferring earlier was he was intentional later about saying, again,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:05</time>
recognizing that they are his children.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:09</time>
And so people will they've argued, right, we've made some reels, Instagram

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:12</time>
reels that got, pretty big because people weren't aware of this lineage.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:15</time>
And so when you say, Hey, Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:18</time>
Lee lived in Arlington, everybody thinks wait, I thought that

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:21</time>
was George Washington's land.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:22</time>
Well, it was, but that's because he married a descendant,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:25</time>
And so people get what, what happens is people use the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:29</time>
law of today and try to push it on colonial law and it wasn't the same.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:34</time>
So today you do have to formally adopt children today, children who come

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:41</time>
from a different descendant and might have some, some inheritance from that.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:48</time>
keep that inheritance usually, even if they do have a stepfather

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:53</time>
or stepmother, that inheritance can be protected under that shot.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:56</time>
That's not the same in colonial times.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
So when Martha Washington marries George Washington, George Washington

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:02</time>
owns everything that Martha Washington brings into the marriage, which was

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:06</time>
everything that her first husband owned, which included the land

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:10</time>
that is now Arlington National

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:12</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:12</time>
And I just want to, because you mentioned that in the video, I

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:15</time>
think it's again, important context.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:17</time>
That is part of the reason that Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:19</time>
Lee And I think the reason he then accepts this position down at the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:22</time>
University is because he can't go home to Arlington because Arlington has is

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:26</time>
now owned essentially by I think it was still the government like Secretary of

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:29</time>
War still had the deed or something like

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:31</time>
So what happens is eventually George Washington's descendant,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:35</time>
his, his great, great His great grandson will build Arlington house.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:40</time>
They inherit the land.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:41</time>
It, it, it is original land of the Custis family.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:44</time>
George Washington makes sure it gets passed down to those children.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:47</time>
They still have it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:48</time>
They haven't lost it in any kind of financial ruin.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:51</time>
I always emphasize that.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:52</time>
they didn't win the Revolutionary War, that's one of the first things that would

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:55</time>
have been taken from them was their land.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:58</time>
If not their lives, their land definitely would have.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:00</time>
So because they won the Revolutionary War, because George Washington preserves

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:04</time>
his place in history, because he's the president, that land is preserved.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:07</time>
So it is inherited by the Custis children.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:11</time>
Arlington House will eventually be built by George Washington Custis.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:15</time>
And he leaves it to his daughter.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
And she Mary's Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:21</time>
Lee and they are married in that house and that house becomes Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:25</time>
Lee's house because again, he's the man.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:28</time>
So when he marries her, her stuff, because his stuff, this is 18 hundreds still.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:34</time>
So things are still owned by men even though I think at this point you

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:40</time>
could make an argument for her owning this, but because it's Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:43</time>
Lee's land and because the Civil War breaks out,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:46</time>
And to your point, he lost, so they took it from him.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:49</time>
yeah, well, they take it from him even before they, he lost, right?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:51</time>
So he leaves, she leaves after because the Union soldiers

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:56</time>
come to commandeer the land.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:57</time>
It's right across the Potomac from Washington DC.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:01</time>
So they come and take the land.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:03</time>
Now, at first they just.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:04</time>
comedy of the house and the land.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:05</time>
But then it's General Postmaster Meggs, who, Meggs, who can't find

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:10</time>
a place to bury more soldiers.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:11</time>
Alexandria National Cemetery gets filled up with soldiers and they go,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:15</time>
where can we bury more Civil War dead?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:17</time>
We need national cemeteries.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
Where is some land available for national cemeteries?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:22</time>
Meggs, who went to school with Lee, mad at Lee things.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:25</time>
said I'm gonna bury him here

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:26</time>
Yeah, Lee's a traitor to me.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:27</time>
And I'm going to make sure Lee never gets to come home to his home.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:30</time>
I'm going to start burying them in Lee's garden.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:33</time>
So that's where the first soldier is William Christensen is the first

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:36</time>
soldier he's buried in Lee's garden.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:38</time>
it's funny because there's actually a picture I cut it in the video We've used

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:42</time>
it before of a bunch of soldiers right Civil War soldiers at Arlington house and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:47</time>
the Arlington house kind of still looks the same Today, so again to your point,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:51</time>
you know had Let's play the what if game.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
Had Lee not lost, he would have got most likely his land back.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:59</time>
He would have got Arlington House back, but he did lose.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:01</time>
So, so they, the government kept it and they, they used it for what it is.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:05</time>
And so again, he had no home to go home to.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:08</time>
home to go

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:09</time>
And so when he was offered this position in Lexington, he takes

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:12</time>
He takes it because not only does it become the president of Washington,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:17</time>
College, it comes with a house.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:20</time>
It comes with a house on campus where the president can live.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:23</time>
So this house at Washington and Lee University, the Lee house, is the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:28</time>
house that he will live in from the end of the Civil War to his death.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
So it's the only other house he has after Arlington House, really,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:36</time>
the Civil War.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:37</time>
the Civil War.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:38</time>
So he comes down.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:40</time>
He's there for about five years and in that time he decides

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:44</time>
to build University Chapel.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:47</time>
So University Chapel was constructed between 1867 and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:51</time>
1868 at the request of Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:52</time>
Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:53</time>
And.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:54</time>
It is his son, George Washington Custis Lee, with details from an

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:59</time>
architect of engineering from VMI and who helps build the chapel.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:04</time>
So the chapel is actually built by Lee's son and it was known

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:09</time>
as College Chapel at the time.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:12</time>
And the centerpiece of the chapel now, even though it's like it plays a part

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:17</time>
of a Christian church, I think they said that it's never really was a,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:21</time>
Yeah, you said in the video, it was always a chapel, but it

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:24</time>
was never like an official church.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:25</time>
So there was no congregation that regularly came there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:29</time>
So I assume if it's a chapel, it's held for occasional services

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:32</time>
for those who want to use it on

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:34</time>
exactly.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:34</time>
And there's two big portraits in there, one of George Washington and one Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:39</time>
Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:39</time>
So, and the George Washington one is done by Gilbert Stewart, which, is the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:44</time>
famous painter of George Washington.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:48</time>
And then the other one of Lee was from 1866.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:52</time>
It's by Jay Reed.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:53</time>
And now it says in 2018, they replaced the portrait of George Washington.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:57</time>
by Charles Wilson Peale from the Washington Family Collections, which I

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:01</time>
think maybe the Gilbert Washington one they wanted back in the National Archives.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:08</time>
So, so it was replaced, but it's still two of these huge paintings

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:13</time>
of the two namesakes of the college.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:16</time>
And that's, that's what's in

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:23</time>
Now it was interesting just behind the scenes.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:25</time>
So we're out there visiting Beautiful, it's fall right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:28</time>
It was just absolutely gorgeous We just beat in kind of like what looked

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:31</time>
like a large group of either students or high schoolers or something like

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:34</time>
that kind of touring the campus but we beat him into the to the chapel, but

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:39</time>
they actually, and I can understand why they asked us to leave a fair

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:44</time>
amount of our stuff, at the front.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:46</time>
So, hey, I have, I always carry a pocket knife on me, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:48</time>
It's just I just leave it in my pocket.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:50</time>
I forget it's there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:51</time>
And they asked Hey, can you leave that up front?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:53</time>
We'll watch it for you.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:54</time>
You can come back and get it because, and maybe this has happened in the past.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:59</time>
I'm just assuming, but they don't want people going in there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:02</time>
Again, when you're going into the crypt, and we'll talk about the gallery

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:06</time>
that's downstairs in his office when you're going into an area of such a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:10</time>
controversial figure, they probably want to beware of someone who might want to

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:14</time>
do harm to these historical artifacts.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:17</time>
Like I said, whether or not your feelings are about these things, they

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:22</time>
are still For everyone to see and they are still for everyone to learn from So

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:30</time>
if you're feeling they get your part to take something away from that It really

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:37</time>
is not fair to everybody else who could be learning something from this and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:43</time>
being able to see something from this.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:45</time>
And that, as a museum professional, we always talk about your role in

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:50</time>
preserving the past is your job is to preserve it for future generations.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:55</time>
Your job is to, it's not to make judgments on it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:58</time>
Your job is just to keep it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:00</time>
and the best condition you can for future generations.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:04</time>
That's your job.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:05</time>
You're a custodian of it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:08</time>
And so whether or not what somebody wants to see when they see it or how they

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:13</time>
feel when they see it is not up to you.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:15</time>
It's the fact that they can see it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
See it and they can, it's there for them to learn from.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:22</time>
So what is behind, after you walk in the chapel and what is

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:26</time>
behind basically the, the wall,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:29</time>
stage.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:30</time>
Kind

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:30</time>
the stage is this huge statue called, it's called the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:33</time>
recumbent statue of Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:35</time>
Lee asleep on the battlefield.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:38</time>
And it's a, it's basically a white statue of Lee looking like he's

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:42</time>
asleep on a bed in his uniform, his uniform from the civil war.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:47</time>
It was by Edward Valentine, who Valentine did a lot of these controversial

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:56</time>
I mean, he must have been relatively well known at the time because

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:59</time>
his name's kind of attached, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:01</time>
He, like you said, he's done a fair amount of statues of in that era.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:04</time>
So he must have been relatively well known.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:06</time>
I mean, he's good at what he does.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:08</time>
I mean,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:08</time>
I mean, it looks very lifelike.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:10</time>
If you want to see what Robert Lee probably looked like in full figure,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:15</time>
that's it looks like a sleeping person.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:19</time>
And, but Valentine did Stonewall Jackson statue, he did busts of Jefferson

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:24</time>
Davis, he did other Lee statues that were removed have since been removed,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:30</time>
like ones that were in Richmond, ones that were in the Capitol building and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:33</time>
so he made a lot of these busts and statues of these controversial figures.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:39</time>
And people often mistake it as like a sarcophagus because

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:42</time>
it looks like a sarcophagus.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:44</time>
It does.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:45</time>
Cause it's on this kind of brick rectangular

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:48</time>
Yeah, and it's in a room that you can you'll see in our video, like

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:51</time>
you can walk around it, you can walk 360 completely around it, there's

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:55</time>
stuff on the walls, I think quotes from Lee and different kinds of things.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:00</time>
And so it's very much like you can walk around this statue and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:04</time>
it looks like the size of a body.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:06</time>
So it looks like a coffin.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:07</time>
life size.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:08</time>
fit right underneath it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:09</time>
But it's not a sarcophagus.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:11</time>
He's not buried inside of it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:12</time>
He's buried in the crypt below.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:14</time>
So it really is just a statue of Robert E Lee asleep on the battlefield.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:21</time>
That's all on the first floor.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:22</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:23</time>
And then you actually go down into where the, the crypt, the kind of the family.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:28</time>
Crypt, I'll call it actually is

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:31</time>
Yeah, and that statue was dedicated in 1883.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:34</time>
So that's about 13 years after Lee has been dead.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:39</time>
And like he's buried in the crypt under stairs under the stairs.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:42</time>
So like you said, so if you go under the stairs, there's a crypt down there with

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:48</time>
basically all the Lee family is down

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
it's a whole plot.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:52</time>
I mean his his wife I mean that you and we show some kind of good still

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:55</time>
pictures if you want to go take a look

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:57</time>
You're not allowed to take video down there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:58</time>
So we took still pictures of it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:01</time>
And so that I would say it's the bottom floor.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:04</time>
But when you walk up to the chapel from the side, that's like

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:10</time>
You're yeah, you're walking out on the ground floor and then it goes

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:12</time>
down So I guess you technically you're walking in on the second floor and then

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:14</time>
you go down to the first but it's it's built on Kind of a hillside and so that's

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:18</time>
where you walk down into the crypt area There's the crypt area and then there's

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:22</time>
also like a gallery and even the full gallery wasn't even open You We got to

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:26</time>
see part of it, but the full thing was

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:28</time>
So I think it's going through some kind of transition.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:31</time>
As you can imagine, the gallery, I think at one point, there probably

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:35</time>
was a lot more southern leaning.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:38</time>
And I think now they're going to try to tell a more well rounded story.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:43</time>
And so I think that's what is being done down there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:45</time>
But the things that haven't changed is Lee's office was down there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:49</time>
And so they have a recreation of what his office would have looked

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:52</time>
like with the original furniture.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:55</time>
Yeah, I thought that was really

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:56</time>
And they have recreations of the artifacts of letters

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:01</time>
and things on his desk.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:02</time>
So what it would have looked like, which was dark, but

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:04</time>
what it would look like today.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:06</time>
with Lee working in there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:07</time>
And then, so in the crypt is General Lee is very like right in the middle.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:14</time>
Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:14</time>
Lee is right in the middle.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:15</time>
And then his wife, Mariana Custis Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:18</time>
And then there's seven children, George Washington Custis Lee,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:21</time>
Mary Custis Lee, William Henry Lee, Ann Carter Lee, Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:25</time>
Lee Jr., Eleanor Agnes Lee, and Mildred Lee are there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:30</time>
His parents are there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:32</time>
Revolutionary War Major General Henry Lighthorse.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:36</time>
Lee and then his favorite horse, Traveler, is buried

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:46</time>
right outside the chapel.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:48</time>
And so there's a door there, like a glass door, and right outside

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:52</time>
is the grave site for Traveler.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:55</time>
And Traveler is the famous horse of Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:58</time>
Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:59</time>
And so visitors will leave coins and apples and things.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:02</time>
Traveler outlives Lee, but not by much.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:05</time>
He steps on a nail, the horse, and gets septus and dies, I

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:11</time>
think a year after Lee died.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:13</time>
honestly, it was interesting reading up on, on this relatively famous

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:18</time>
historic horse, because apparently the horse was incredibly spirited,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:24</time>
not, wouldn't let anybody ride it.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:26</time>
But when Lee saw it, it's okay, that's going to be my, That's going to be my

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:30</time>
horse and was, was quite fond of it.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:33</time>
I even read when I was making the video that, he had these whistles

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:37</time>
that he would train traveler on.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:39</time>
And, and so it was, it was just interesting reading about this this, this

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:43</time>
horse of someone as famous as Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:46</time>
Lee.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:47</time>
Well, it's interesting too, is a traveler.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:50</time>
He's looks like he's about 14 years old, and that's decently old for a horse.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:55</time>
But most of the time people don't bury horses.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:58</time>
That's a rare thing.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:00</time>
And if a horse dies, even famous horses, You usually don't bury the entire horse.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:08</time>
Usually you might bury the head.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:09</time>
I hate to sound graphic here.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:11</time>
And the rest of the horse is used for other purposes because it's a huge animal.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:19</time>
So for traveler to be buried is a big deal.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:23</time>
And like I said, it's very rare.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:24</time>
You hear of some horses being buried in their entirety.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:27</time>
Secretariat would be one of them, but it's just still rare for entire horse

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:31</time>
It's rare, but to be honest, I'm not.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:34</time>
Too surprised that that happened at the time, because at the time Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:39</time>
Lee was so well known and so famous and revered in that part of the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:46</time>
country that kind of, he had that halo effect of everything else around him.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:51</time>
And that, part of his mystique, part of, the, the, the story

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:56</time>
of him was his horse, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:59</time>
His horse was also famous.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:27:01</time>
And so, again, super rare but I'm not, I'm not too surprised

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:27:05</time>
this happened down there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:06</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:07</time>
And I, we will say before we even went, we had people tell us, Oh, they removed that.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:12</time>
They removed Lee's horse.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:13</time>
They removed it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:14</time>
And we were like, Oh, well, we better get over there

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:27:16</time>
They said they removed the marker, but we got over

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:27:18</time>
there and there was like two

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:19</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:20</time>
So nothing was removed.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:21</time>
Everything was the same.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:23</time>
So just so you know, it's there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:24</time>
If you want to see our video, it's there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:26</time>
The university chapel was officially renamed from Lee chapel on June 4th, 2021

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:32</time>
by the university's board of trustees.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:34</time>
So it was.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:36</time>
Lee Chapel for a long time and then they renamed it in 2021 to University

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:41</time>
Chapel and that's what you'll hear today.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:44</time>
And again, you can go in and visit, it's, it's free to tour it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:49</time>
You can go behind to see the statue, go downstairs, see the crypt go see

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:53</time>
his office and then the gallery.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:55</time>
Hopefully the gallery will be more up to date.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:59</time>
So you can visit, but that is, it's a place there for you.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:02</time>
It's right beside VMI.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:04</time>
So if you want it to look at VMI as well, it's very Gothic

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:07</time>
like buildings over there at

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:08</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:08</time>
Beautiful

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:09</time>
but beautiful big campus.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:11</time>
But the other place we went is we walked up the hill to Lee house.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:19</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:19</time>
It might be less than a hundred yards from the chapel.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:23</time>
it's not very far.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:24</time>
And this is the house where Robert E.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:26</time>
Lee lived as he was president.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:30</time>
This is where his wife will live.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:31</time>
The family will live while he's president until his death.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:35</time>
that's where the presidents of the university today still live.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:39</time>
And so it's, it's a active house.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:42</time>
So we couldn't go inside of it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:43</time>
And we tried to be respectful and not really film too

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:47</time>
Yeah, like we didn't walk up to the porch and stand on the porch

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:50</time>
and film right there on the porch.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:52</time>
We stayed off to the side because there is, there is a sign out front

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:56</time>
that says private residence, no entry allowed or something like that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:00</time>
So, it was cool, but that's where Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:02</time>
Lee lived from 1865 to 1870 , until his death.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:06</time>
It's neat to know that this was like Lee's house and to be able to see it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:11</time>
And so it is within viewing distance of the chapel.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:15</time>
So when you think about after the civil war and Lexington and the

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:19</time>
five years that Lee had after losing that great war this is his life.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:26</time>
was basically this campus.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:28</time>
I don't think he went far from here.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:31</time>
It was like my house to work in my office, back to my house.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:36</time>
And this was basically the last five years of his life.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:39</time>
His days were filled here.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:41</time>
So it was neat to see what happened to this man after.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:47</time>
such a tremendous loss to his career and to his life and to basically his

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:52</time>
whole livelihood and basically his ancestry because they lost everything.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:58</time>
And so to be there and to see what happened there at the end

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:01</time>
was a neat ending to American history and to see what happened.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:07</time>
in those later years after Reconstruction and the Civil War.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:11</time>
So it was cool to be there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:12</time>
Yeah, again, it's it's one of those things that you know, obviously

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:17</time>
Everybody's happy about the way things the way things turned out, but

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:21</time>
we're still visiting these locations.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:23</time>
It's just different actually being there in the space Where these giants

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:29</time>
of history spent their last days like we are walking the same path in the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:34</time>
same location that these You These huge historical figures did as well.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:40</time>
It was pretty cool

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:46</time>
Well folks

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:47</time>
that wraps up our visit to what used to be called Lee

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:50</time>
Chapel, now University Chapel, and our exploration of Robert E.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:55</time>
Lee's legacy.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:57</time>
Lee's story is a complicated one filled with heroism, controversy,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:02</time>
and a whole lot of history.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:05</time>
Whether you see him as a brilliant strategist or a defender of a horrific

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:08</time>
institution, there's no denying his lasting impact on the American narrative.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:15</time>
We hope this episode sparked some interesting conversations and maybe even

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:18</time>
challenged some preconceived notions.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:20</time>
Remember, history is complicated, it needs context, it's full of shades of

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:25</time>
gray, and Lee's story is a prime example.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:34</time>
Thank you for listening to the talk with history podcast and please reach out

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:36</time>
to us at our website talkwithhistory.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:38</time>
com.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:38</time>
But more importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy this

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:41</time>
podcast, please share it with them.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:42</time>
Especially if you think today's topic would interest a friend, shoot them

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:45</time>
a text and tell them to look us up.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:47</time>
We rely on you, our community to grow, and we appreciate you all every day.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:52</time>
We'll talk to you next time.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:53</time>
Thank you.

The Story