A Political Thriller from the view of John Quincy Adams with Author Michael B Zucker

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:00</time>
somebody that Americans may not have heard Prince Clemens von Metternich.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:04</time>
He was Austria's foreign minister slash chancellor in this period.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:09</time>
He was a major architect of Napoleon's defeat.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:12</time>
That, as Adams explains in the book that Metternich brokered Napoleon's

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:17</time>
marriage to his second wife, Marie Louise of Austria, in order to get Napoleon

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:21</time>
to think that Austria was a neutral state and would not threaten France.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:25</time>
Which then convinced Napoleon that it was safe to invade Russia in 1812.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:28</time>
Predicting Napoleon's defeat there, Metternich arranged for the rest

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:32</time>
of Europe to then strike France.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:34</time>
After he just lost 600, 000 troops in Russia, which forced

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:38</time>
Napoleon's first abdication.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:40</time>
And then he organizes what's called the Congress of Vienna in the Concert of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:43</time>
Europe, which helps to avoid at least a major war in Europe of that scale

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:49</time>
for a hundred years until World War I.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:52</time>
Wow.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:53</time>
So This is sort of the adversary that Adams is going up against.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:00:57</time>
Wow.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:08</time>
Welcome to Talk With History.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:11</time>
I am your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:13</time>
Hello!

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:14</time>
On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:19</time>
YouTube channel journey and examine history through deeper conversations

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:22</time>
with the curious the explorers and the history lovers out there

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:31</time>
Now today is a little different.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:32</time>
We haven't done an interview in a while and we were actually joined

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:35</time>
by Michael B Zucker the author of multiple books spanning from historical

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:40</time>
fiction to the book we are here to chat about today that goes into

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:44</time>
depth about the Middle generation is the title of the book our founding

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:49</time>
father specifically John Quincy Adams

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:55</time>
This sounds like a good holiday book for the history fan Holiday present

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:01:59</time>
for that for the history fan on there.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:00</time>
The timing is I'm sure intentional for book for book releases now What a what

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:06</time>
I kind of wanted to just jump right into is is what brought you into kind

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:11</time>
of the history niche And are you working in that industry right now, and if not

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:18</time>
working in that industry, what kind of brought you around to this particular

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:21</time>
topic for the middle generation?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:23</time>
So, I gained interest in history when I was around 15.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:28</time>
Um, you know, like a lot of teenage boys, I had an interest in, you know...

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:32</time>
Superheroes and that type of thing.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:34</time>
Um, and then I think World War II is initially what caught my attention of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:39</time>
this sort of like global struggle of, you know, good and evil, that sort of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:43</time>
thing, all these heroes and villains.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:44</time>
So that was sort of the initial entry point.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:47</time>
And then, uh, General Eisenhower became the person who I sort of Hooked on to from

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:53</time>
there, then to his presidency, which then kind of extended to like all presidents.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:02:59</time>
Um, so my first sort of major novel as an adult is called The Eisenhower Chronicles,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:06</time>
which is sort of like an HBO miniseries in a novel format, like 15 different episodes

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:11</time>
through World War II and his presidency.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:14</time>
Um, and that, I think that's a good book.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:19</time>
I'm proud of it, but at the same time, it was sort of like a learning experience.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:23</time>
Um, and by the end of it, I wanted to do a somewhat similar topic,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:27</time>
just kind of test what I learned as a writer from that experience.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:32</time>
And so John Quincy Adams, to me, made sense, sort of, if Eisenhower was this

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:37</time>
sort of giant of 20th century America, Adams was this giant of early 19th

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:42</time>
century America, they were both, in my view, these masters of foreign policy.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:49</time>
Um, and this novel largely focuses, focuses on Adams's

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:55</time>
time as Secretary of State.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:03:57</time>
Uh, he's usually ranked as the greatest Secretary of State in American history.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:02</time>
And so just some of the different things, like, you know, part of the reason why

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:05</time>
the title is The Middle Generation is the idea that it's this kind of overlooked

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:09</time>
era, kind of sandwiched between the Revolution and the Founding Fathers, and

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:14</time>
then later Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War and to most Americans, this second

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:23</time>
generation of that era, they might know that somebody like Andrew Jackson, or

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:28</time>
they may have heard of like the Monroe Doctrine, but it's largely overlooked.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:32</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:32</time>
I guess to your point that, you know, there's a lot of people that they know a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:36</time>
lot of the flagpole moments, but there's all this stuff that happened in between.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:40</time>
And it sounds like that's what you kind of dive into.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:43</time>
Yeah, so

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:43</time>
it's, so it's Adams as Secretary of State, and it's, um, so James Monroe is

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:49</time>
president, um, you know, so what's called the era of good feelings, as the novel

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:04:54</time>
shows, and it's, you know, very, a lot of research went into it, about 400 pages

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:00</time>
of notes, um, that I was working off of, that there was multiple crises going on,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:08</time>
that Monroe and Adams were navigating.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:10</time>
Um, the biggest one is one that I was surprised I never heard of given my

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:16</time>
interest in foreign po like the history of American foreign policy, um, which

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:21</time>
is sort of the origin story behind the Monroe Doctrine, which was that the,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:27</time>
what was called the Holy Alliance, which was this alliance of, I'm not using this

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:33</time>
word in the modern context, but again, it's historical context, of conservative

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:37</time>
Monarchies in Europe, namely Austria, Russia, which was a large German state,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:44</time>
and Russia had joined together after defeating Napoleon in order to enforce

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:50</time>
the peace in Europe, that they blamed the Enlightenment and the American and

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:05:54</time>
French revolutions on Napoleon and 25 years of warfare, um, so they were More

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:01</time>
than a little suspicious of, sort of, the Enlightenment project, Napoleon

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:08</time>
at one point had invaded Spain and tried to put his brother in charge of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:12</time>
Spain and removed King Ferdinand, who was the Spanish monarch, and that was

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:16</time>
seen as illegitimate across Spanish America, so both Mexico, Central

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:21</time>
America, and most of South America.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:23</time>
South America and Mexico were waging wars of independence against the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:27</time>
Spanish Empire in this period, and that's sort of the initial crisis that

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:32</time>
The Monroe administration inherits.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:34</time>
And so, and that's where the book starts is that is Monroe, Adams, and the rest of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:40</time>
the cabinet, um, sort of navigating that situation of, you know, most Americans

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:47</time>
support South American independence, um, and most of them want to, at the very

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:53</time>
least, diplomatically recognize these new republics emerging in South America.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:58</time>
But.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:06:59</time>
Adams is concerned that if we recognize them, that could lead to war with

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:07:03</time>
Spain, which could then lead to war with the Holy Alliance, which the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:07:09</time>
United States, this is the second generation that the United States exists.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:07:12</time>
Monroe is the last of the founding father presidents.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:07:15</time>
We're not really in a position to go to war.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:07:17</time>
Right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:18</time>
Most of Europe.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:19</time>
So it was, it was from, and again, I kind of joke all the time, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:23</time>
And I never assume people listen to the podcast, although we've been growing

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:27</time>
a little bit, but I never assume.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:29</time>
And we joke all the time, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:30</time>
Jen's the historian.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:31</time>
She's got a graduate degree.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:33</time>
She's working on her own historical fiction book.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:35</time>
You know, all this stuff.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:36</time>
And I am, I am married into history Nerd Himm.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:39</time>
He

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:39</time>
knows it though.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:40</time>
He has a political science degree, so, so has a PolySci I,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:43</time>
and he has a master's degree in,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:44</time>
in national, but it's military oriented master's degree, . Um,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:48</time>
but it, it sounds to me like John Quincy Adams, and please correct me

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:52</time>
if I'm wrong, was like one of the.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:54</time>
One of the first, you know, like you said kind of this this next generation

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:58</time>
of leaders in America that kind of really had to navigate these global politics

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:05</time>
because we just couldn't literally afford to get into like a large scale war with

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:12</time>
you know, all of these other large nations like we're just trying to Settle and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:15</time>
grow and yeah and grow the nation right

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:18</time>
now.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:19</time>
We're a small country at the time.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:21</time>
I mean small economically and small military wise.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:25</time>
We're not, we're not like France or Germany or England at the time.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:31</time>
So we can't really fight that type of war.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:34</time>
And so we have to be very careful of who we are recognizing.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:38</time>
And who we make mad.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:40</time>
Yeah,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:40</time>
so is, is that really kind of why you, what you found when you were doing,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:44</time>
you know, 400 pages plus of, of research?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:08:50</time>
Yeah, so, um, you, you, as you were saying, we weren't a big country yet.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:08:54</time>
So what's interesting is this is the period where...

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:08:57</time>
You know, and Adams spearheaded this effort to sort of elevate the United

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:01</time>
States from being what we would now call a minor power into a medium power, and

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:06</time>
then by like the end of the 1800s with the war, the Spanish American War and Teddy

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:10</time>
Roosevelt, we become a great power, but so we spend most of the 1800s as kind of a

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:14</time>
medium power, and this is the point where that happens, and Monroe is interested

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:23</time>
in this, but Adams in particular, Um, is hoping to take advantage of the Spanish

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:29</time>
Empire's collapse and set the United States in control of the North American

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:33</time>
continent in order, largely, both for its own purposes, but he's also hoping that

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:40</time>
if he does that, the country will like him and elect him as the next president.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:43</time>
One of the major subplots and not just subplots, but like, you know, central

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:48</time>
to his sort of character arc in the novel is the issue of whether that was

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:56</time>
actually his desire to become president.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:09:59</time>
And how much of it is Being the eldest son of John and Abigail Adams and their

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:04</time>
legacy, very extreme expectations of him.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:09</time>
Um, they didn't quite put it in these words, but almost framing it

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:13</time>
as, you know, we established this country so you will become president.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:16</time>
Um, so this extreme ambition and also there's a, um, a quote that, uh, Abigail

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:24</time>
Adams says at the end of the first section of the book and it's an actual quote

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:28</time>
of hers where she says something to the effect that, If you are not basically

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:33</time>
the most virtuous person that a human can possibly be, then I'd rather you

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:38</time>
had just died in the ocean, be here.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:41</time>
Oh, it's a loving mother.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:43</time>
So it's this, it's extreme, um, ambition and virtue simultaneously

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:48</time>
that he feels obligated to fulfill.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:51</time>
And that's sort of the foundation of.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:10:54</time>
John Quincy Adams as a character in the novel and sort of his arc in the novel

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:00</time>
of trying to live up to both of those extreme and somewhat contradictory values.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:06</time>
That's,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:06</time>
that's interesting.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:07</time>
So, so you mentioned the, the character arc of John Quincy Adams in your book.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:11</time>
I mean, what can you kind of like, I'm going to paint like a, a, a

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:15</time>
little bit of that picture of that character arc as he's going through.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:19</time>
Yes.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:19</time>
And

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:19</time>
can you tell us like, what's his age, ages here?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:23</time>
And is he now he's the, is he the first president to have a foreign wife or?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:28</time>
Yes.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:29</time>
And then she's another very important character is, um, Louisa Catherine Adams.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:35</time>
Um, she's probably the second most important character in the book

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:37</time>
after John Quincy Adams himself.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:40</time>
And part of her character arc is, and it's.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:45</time>
You don't initially get the connection with this, but you, by the end of the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:49</time>
first section, you can kind of see how this all fits, is Adams is quite hard on

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:11:55</time>
his own family, um, both on his wife and his three sons, especially his eldest

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:00</time>
son, and and It seems pretty clear to me, and I think most of his biographers

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:06</time>
also say this, that the pressure that his parents were putting on him, he was

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:12</time>
in turn taking out on his own family.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:15</time>
Um, and not, not ordering his sons to become presidents, but still putting a

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:20</time>
lot of weight on them to be successful.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:23</time>
We would probably now call it, at least verbally abusive to his wife and sons.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:28</time>
And, you know, that was sort of, so it was like his parents, Their way upon him

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:12:33</time>
sort of distorted his own personality.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:37</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:37</time>
I mean, that sounds like, like human nature, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:40</time>
You know, people, people change and we learn a little bit, you know,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:44</time>
over the decades, over the centuries, but people don't change that much.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:12:47</time>
You know,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:48</time>
if it's generational, it absolutely is.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:50</time>
It absolutely is.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:52</time>
So, so my question, I have a couple of questions to, um, middle

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:55</time>
generation, did you coin that term or is that something you had seen or

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
something that has been used before?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:00</time>
That

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:00</time>
specific phrase, as far as I know.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:03</time>
Uh, I just came up with that.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:04</time>
It's actually, I like it.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:05</time>
That's a good one.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:06</time>
It

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:07</time>
paints a picture,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:08</time>
um, very, you know, quickly.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:09</time>
And the idea is that, you know, obviously he's the son of the second president.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:13</time>
And, um, a lot of his, I mean, his career was started when George

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:19</time>
Washington appointed him ambassador to the Netherlands, um, in the 1790s.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:24</time>
So it's like his career starts with Washington and John Adams.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:28</time>
The rest of this is kind of discussed more in the authors note at the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:30</time>
end, but that's his career ends as a mentor to Abraham Lincoln in Congress.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:34</time>
That's so cool.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:35</time>
That's so cool.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:36</time>
So he, so he's like the primary link between the founders and Lincoln.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:41</time>
And I think the concept of the middle generation.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:46</time>
And then you said in your research, where did you

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:48</time>
do the bulk of your research?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:52</time>
Like what archive were you looking in and where were you researching from?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:13:57</time>
So by far the most important source of information was That Adams kept

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:04</time>
a 51 volume diary throughout his life.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:07</time>
Whoa.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:09</time>
Um, which, thankfully, the Massachusetts Historical Society

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:13</time>
digitized and has on their website and built in a search engine.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:17</time>
Yes!

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
Wow.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:19</time>
For the win.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
Which, in terms of like the 400 pages, at least half of that is from there.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:28</time>
It's diary entries and kind of pulling, like, okay, this is, like, is he, because

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:31</time>
he wrote down a lot of the time, like, you know, cabinet meeting today, I said this,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:36</time>
Treasury Secretary Crawford said this.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:38</time>
I told him he was wrong over this and, um, really laying them out

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:44</time>
and, yeah, so that was a hugely critical source of information.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:50</time>
Yeah, both in terms of, you know, what happened and just getting a

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:55</time>
sense of, um, his voice, I think.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:58</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:14:59</time>
Because it is a first person novel, so it's, you know, very much rooted

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:02</time>
in his perspective and sort of as he's navigating these different

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:06</time>
situations, so I think just...

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:08</time>
Getting that, the sound of his voice, you know, really in my head.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:11</time>
So I can embody it.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:12</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:13</time>
And

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:14</time>
that's, and that's kind of a, you know, for, for

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:17</time>
historians like you too, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
I won't put myself in your category.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:21</time>
I'm not, I'm not that smart, but, uh, but, but for historians like you, when

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:25</time>
you're doing that kind of research, that's probably like the most valuable

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:30</time>
source you could get from the person.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:32</time>
Right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:32</time>
And like you said, you, you read enough 51 volumes that, you

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:36</time>
know, to really get his voice.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:37</time>
Right.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:38</time>
And I mean, that's, that's a lot of writing.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:40</time>
I mean, I think if I wrote that much, people would be able to figure out.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:42</time>
Kind of my tone and my personality through that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:46</time>
So, um, that's really neat that you were able to get so much of your material, you

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:51</time>
know, basically directly from the source.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:53</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
And then is he living in DC during this time?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:56</time>
Yes.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:15:57</time>
Um, so he's living, it was at the time it was called Washington City.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:01</time>
Okay.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:01</time>
Um, But yes, he was living in, and I don't remember off the top of my head the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:06</time>
exact addresses, but they're in the novel.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:08</time>
He lives in two different locations, um, in, in D.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:13</time>
C., and it says, like, it's at the intersection of here and here,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:16</time>
and then later here and there.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:18</time>
And I have to look at the novel to remember exactly where.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
So in your research, and as you were writing the book, was there any kind

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:25</time>
of one thing that You know, one or two things that kind of really stood out

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:29</time>
to you that surprised you when you were doing this research that to either learn

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:33</time>
about John Quincy Adams or something that he did that you didn't know or

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:38</time>
most people don't know that that they should or that you learned and you were

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:41</time>
just like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:43</time>
I, I can't believe this is true and it's not better, better known.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:52</time>
Well, the first one I would say is, again, I actually need to fully

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:16:55</time>
finish the point from earlier that the origin story of the Monroe Doctrine, um,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:01</time>
so if anybody who's read about, you know, Napoleon in that era of European history

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:06</time>
may have heard of the Holy Alliance.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:07</time>
But that, as South America was gaining its independence, the Holy Alliance sort of...

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:13</time>
declared that they would not legally recognize these new republics as

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:19</time>
independent, and that they wanted to reimpose the Spanish Empire, because they

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:24</time>
feared that, in the same way that American independence led to the French Revolution,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:28</time>
that South American independence would lead to another European cataclysm.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:32</time>
And Adams figured out, fairly quickly, that they were trying to spook us into

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:37</time>
making a joint statement with Britain.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:39</time>
Against this, which would sort of tell the world by making a joint statement

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:45</time>
that the United States could not defend the Western Hemisphere on its own, and

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:48</time>
we would lose a lot of our credibility as we were trying to rise in the world.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:52</time>
Oh, interesting.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:17:53</time>
Um, and one of the key leaders of the Holy Alliance is somebody that Americans

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:00</time>
may not have heard of, some might have, um, Prince Clemens von Metternich.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:07</time>
Who, he was Austria's foreign minister slash chancellor in this period.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:14</time>
He was a major architect of Napoleon's defeat.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:18</time>
That, as Adams explains in the book when he's analyzing Metternich, that

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:23</time>
Metternich brokered Napoleon's marriage to his second wife, Marie Louise of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:27</time>
Austria, in order to get Napoleon to think that Austria was a neutral

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:31</time>
state and would not threaten France.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:34</time>
Which then convinced Napoleon that it was safe to invade Russia in 1812.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:39</time>
And, predicting Napoleon's defeat there, Metternich sort of arranged for the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:43</time>
rest of Europe to then strike France.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:46</time>
After he just lost 600, 000 troops in Russia, which forced

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:50</time>
Napoleon's first abdication.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:52</time>
And so, this is, you know, the overall leader of the Holy Oh, and then he

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:18:56</time>
organizes what's called the Congress of Vienna in the Concert of Europe,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:00</time>
which helps to avoid at least a major war in Europe of that scale for a

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:06</time>
hundred years until World War I.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:07</time>
Wow.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:08</time>
So This is sort of the adversary that Adams is going up against.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:13</time>
Wow.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:13</time>
And their diplomatic chess match is the main conflict of the novel.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:18</time>
A chess match over the Western Hemisphere's independence from Europe.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:22</time>
And I don't want to spoil the ending, but the Monroe Doctrine emerges from this.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:28</time>
sort of showdown between America's greatest Secretary of State

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:32</time>
and who the person who might be Europe's greatest ever diplomat

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:36</time>
You know, I'm not gonna lie like the way you spelled that out.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:39</time>
I mean that could absolutely be a miniseries

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:42</time>
Well now Michael, that's so interesting now with the movie coming out

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:46</time>
Everyone's gonna want to know the what happened what happened and who the other

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:50</time>
people and it's a perfect time, right?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:54</time>
Because it makes it gives us an American hero in the story to,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:58</time>
you know, side of it.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:58</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:19:59</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:00</time>
And I didn't know that Ridley Scott was working on this when I started.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:05</time>
But another thing you mentioned the timing with the holidays,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:07</time>
obviously, that was a factor.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:08</time>
But also, um, November 2023, which is, you know, the month of this release

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:14</time>
and at least when we're recording this.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:16</time>
Um, it's also the 200th anniversary of the Monroe Doctrine.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:20</time>
Oh yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:21</time>
Okay.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:22</time>
Which is another thing I, when I started working on it, I didn't

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:24</time>
know that, but then it occurred to me after I looked at the date,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:27</time>
like 20 times, like, wait a second.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:29</time>
Oh,

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:29</time>
I'll have to, I'll have to make sure when we start kind

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:31</time>
of sharing this and stuff like that, we, we kind of toss that out

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
Is it so the Monroe Doctrine, I assume is in the National Archives.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:38</time>
Is it something you could visit?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:41</time>
Um.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:42</time>
Well, it's, it was part of President Monroe.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:44</time>
We, now, nowadays we would call it a State of the Union address.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:47</time>
Oh.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:47</time>
It was just like a speech.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:48</time>
Um, it was part of a, it was part of his, they at then they called

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:52</time>
it the annual message to Congress.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:54</time>
Okay.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:55</time>
It was just like a section of, of his speech where he's laying out that,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:20:58</time>
you know, we oppose future European colonization of this hemisphere.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:03</time>
Mm-Hmm.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:03</time>
. And in exchange we won't get involved in European affairs.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:06</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:07</time>
Um, I don't know where the archive, like, the archive of that speech

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:13</time>
would be, probably either National Archives or maybe Highland, which

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:17</time>
is his, Monroe's estate in Virginia.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:19</time>
Yeah,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:20</time>
we haven't visited there yet.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:21</time>
Um, because it would be cool to visit it for the 200th anniversary.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:26</time>
That would be pretty neat.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:27</time>
Yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm fascinated.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:29</time>
I'm curious.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:30</time>
So do you go, so in this book, are you focusing primarily on the American side

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:35</time>
or do you, you kind of spell out a little bit more, uh, of the, the European side

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:40</time>
of things, like you were telling us about Metternich and everything like that?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:43</time>
Because that story sounds quite, quite interesting.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:46</time>
Well, since it is a first person novel, it pretty much sticks with Adams.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:49</time>
Okay.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:50</time>
Um, but he does, he, he talks a lot about like, you know, This is who Metternich

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:21:56</time>
is and this is what he's done and why he's, you know, kind of building up

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:22:02</time>
the adversary, you know, to kind of help feed the conflict of the novel.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:22:06</time>
Like this is the threat that we are facing.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:09</time>
Have you, have you ever thought, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm latching on to

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:13</time>
something that I just find so interesting, but the, with the, with the Metternich

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:16</time>
character, I mean, have you thought about like, hey, you know, how neat

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:20</time>
would it be to kind of write almost like a companion novel, same era, but from.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:25</time>
From the European from Metternich's perspective.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:27</time>
I mean, how interesting would that be right from someone who's a key player?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:31</time>
And all of all the stuff that you were spelling out with Napoleon and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:34</time>
France and everything that's going on But this character that a lot

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:37</time>
of people may not be familiar with but was so pivotal Maybe the middle

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:42</time>
generation over in Europe, but I mean have you have your thought about that?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:45</time>
I mean what made you want to write this as a kind of first person perspective?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:50</time>
vice the typical third person

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:22:55</time>
Right.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:22:56</time>
I mean, part of it was, again, with the Eisenhower book, I

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:22:58</time>
had kind of experimented a bit.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:00</time>
So some chapters are in third person, others are in first person.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:03</time>
Okay.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:03</time>
And I just learned that I liked first person a lot.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:05</time>
And a couple of editors who had worked on that book said that those were

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:09</time>
actually the best chapters of that book.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:12</time>
So that was kind of like, okay, that's, well, let me see if I could write

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:16</time>
an entire book in the first person.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:18</time>
So I'd committed to that before, um, kind of seeing what this actual conflict.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:25</time>
Um, as far as writing about Metternich, I think.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:29</time>
I actually think I have that in my list of potential novel ideas, but I want

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:35</time>
to find things that, like, have not been written about too much, and there

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:40</time>
are a number of biographies of him.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:42</time>
Mm.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:42</time>
Yeah, I

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:43</time>
think Napoleon's a pretty popular topic.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:45</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:23:45</time>
So,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:45</time>
yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:47</time>
Uh, absolutely.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:49</time>
And then, um, I don't think there's been much historical fiction of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:54</time>
Metternich outside of whenever he shows up in some sort of Napoleon content.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:23:58</time>
I mean, I have ideas for what I want to do.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:24:00</time>
Next and I don't know if I'm gonna get to metternich

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:03</time>
at some point Yeah, I just I just thought that was interesting

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:06</time>
right from a non historian One of the questions I actually have on here is

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:11</time>
you know, if you're gonna convince a non history fan like myself to read your

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:14</time>
book You know How would you do that?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:18</time>
And to me little interesting anecdotes like that, you know, whether it's the the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:23</time>
global kind of political chess you know that that you were mentioning between

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:27</time>
John, quincy adams and and metternich or some of the other interesting aspects of

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:32</time>
it Like if you were going to try to say hey, I know you're not a history person

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:36</time>
But here's why you might be interested in my book Like what do you think one of

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:24:38</time>
the one or two of those things might be?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:24:41</time>
Well, I mean I went I really tried to write this So it reads more

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
like a political thriller than like a, than like a textbook of some kind.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:24:49</time>
Like, every scene has, you know, maneuverings, calculations, revelations

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:24:56</time>
of some kind, um, so I think, I mean, the idea was that the plot really kind

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:25:00</time>
of Keeps driving forward in that way and then it's also a character study

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:25:05</time>
for people who are more interested in really digging into a person.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:25:08</time>
So as as I said, you know, Adams has this sort of complicated character arc

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:25:12</time>
that plays out throughout the novel.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:25:14</time>
I mean, I don't want to keep away

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:17</time>
ending, but yeah, no, but that's I mean, that's that's perfect, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:20</time>
So again, you kind of again, write it more as.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:24</time>
Your, your classic, you know, first person fiction novel, but

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:27</time>
it's, it's incredibly historical and, you know, deeply researched.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:25:32</time>
Michael, I

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:33</time>
commend you because John Quincy Adams, when you talk

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:36</time>
about him, he seems perfect.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:37</time>
Right?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:38</time>
Because he's witnessing his father.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:40</time>
He's part, he's watching all of this.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:42</time>
He's being kind of manipulated by his parents.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:45</time>
So he's always strategic there.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:47</time>
You know, what do they want from me?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:48</time>
What are they really looking for when they are saying this to me?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:51</time>
He has a foreign wife.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:53</time>
So he can kind of get some ideas about foreign policy from her and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:56</time>
then he's kind of The background guy in all of this, he's really standing

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:02</time>
back and watching all of it, and kind of taking, you know, taking the time

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:07</time>
to be strategic in what he's doing.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:09</time>
It's, it, he really is the perfect person for this.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:12</time>
It's almost like he was born for this.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:14</time>
Yeah, for this kind of, like you said, a political thriller.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:17</time>
I think that's a great way to pitch it to someone who's like, Uh, I

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:21</time>
don't know about John Quincy Adams.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:22</time>
Like, I don't know, this is different.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:23</time>
This is, this reads much more like a political thriller.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:27</time>
From a researched perspective, really in his voice.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:30</time>
I think that's incredibly fascinating.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:26:34</time>
Thank you.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:26:34</time>
I mean, one other thing I'll just throw in with regards to the character study part

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:26:38</time>
is that, um, Cause my, obviously my wife read the book, and she thought he was very

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:26:43</time>
relatable in that, in the sense of this parental pressure, not just to succeed,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:26:49</time>
but part of why I think, sort of, hurt him as like a, his like, both his mental

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:26:54</time>
health and then why he, Became the sort of human porcupine figure to everybody else

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:00</time>
was that I don't actually think he wanted to be, um, a politician or in diplomacy.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:07</time>
I think my sense is that he was more interested in astronomy and poetry.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:12</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:12</time>
Huh.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:13</time>
And his parents being John and Abigail Adams pushed him into this.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:19</time>
And that's never explicitly said, but it's sort of hinted at in the book

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:22</time>
that like, you know, looking at the stars or writing a poem is how he

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:27</time>
sort of relaxes and feels at peace.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:30</time>
And so she was so, you know, as she was reading, she said she felt like

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:27:33</time>
he was a very relatable character to focus on for anybody who's, you know,

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:47</time>
I mean, because when you think about it, let's think about this.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:49</time>
Like George Washington has no children, I mean, no, you know, biological children.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:54</time>
And then Jefferson, he does, he has a daughter.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:58</time>
So Adams John Quincy Adams is like the first boy of America

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:02</time>
when you think about it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:03</time>
Oh sure, right?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:05</time>
So that's a lot of pressure.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:06</time>
I think it's great that you fleshed out this story and you found something that

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:11</time>
is, you know really is something that's so foundational to America and really a

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:17</time>
part of a bigger story with this whole Napoleon coming out like it really is and

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:22</time>
you have John Quincy Adams who Doesn't want to be thrust into the middle of all

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:26</time>
of this political negotiation, but he's good at it Because he's watched it for

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:30</time>
a long time and he's and he is kind of like He kind of can see what's going on.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:35</time>
So I think this is fantastic.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:37</time>
Yeah, that's that's super interesting How how long did it

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:40</time>
take you to do all this research?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:42</time>
It must take a

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:28:42</time>
little while Yeah, so it took about three months of sort of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:28:46</time>
just saturation in the research to sort of learn who Adams was, the

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:28:51</time>
other players we haven't discussed, you know, Henry Clay and John C.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:28:54</time>
Calhoun yet, but they're very important side characters, um, as well as Monroe

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:00</time>
and sort of, so it's about three, three months of research to learn everybody

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:06</time>
and basically plan out the story.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:10</time>
And then the rough draft took about six months.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:13</time>
And then the second draft, which was kind of like the main draft,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:16</time>
was another three months or so.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:19</time>
And then just a few more months of just kind of just polishing it.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:23</time>
So all in all, it was a year, a year and a half.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:27</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:28</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:28</time>
Okay.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:29</time>
Okay.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:29</time>
So you say the other characters involved.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:31</time>
So again, what's the, what's the timeline of the book?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:34</time>
What, what are we looking at a year?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:37</time>
What are you looking at?

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:37</time>
Uh,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:38</time>
no, so it covers the entire Monroe presidency, which

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:42</time>
is the full length of when Adams is Secretary of State.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:45</time>
So it starts in 1817, the end of 1817, and it ends in 1825.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:52</time>
I was surprised to learn that Adams was allied with both John C.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:29:57</time>
Calhoun and Andrew Jackson in this period, um, and enemies with Henry

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:02</time>
Clay, because I think to anybody who is at all familiar with these people,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:06</time>
you would expect it was the reverse.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:08</time>
That Adams and Clay seem like natural allies, because on domestic politics,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:12</time>
they agree almost entirely with regards to, um, infrastructure, well now we

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:18</time>
would call it infrastructure, back then they called it internal improvements,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:22</time>
um, so, uh, somewhat more active.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:25</time>
federal government some looking more like alexander hamilton than thomas jefferson

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:32</time>
in terms of domestic policies um as well as both being um opposed to slavery adam's

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:39</time>
more than clay but both being opposed to slavery whereas john c calhoun is sort

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:44</time>
of to the extent that he's remembered it's largely as The leading defender

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:49</time>
of slavery in that second generation and as well as setting the ideological

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:54</time>
foundation for the confederacy during the civil war, including the concept of

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:30:58</time>
the state nullification of federal law.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:00</time>
And then Andrew Jackson, of course, um, is mostly known for the Trail

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:05</time>
of Tears and, um, other, you know.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:08</time>
Things that are viewed negatively nowadays.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:11</time>
Uh, so, the fact that Adams was allied with Calhoun and Jackson and opposed to

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:15</time>
Clay, and again, I don't want to give too much away, but there's a large reversal

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:20</time>
of allegiances throughout this novel.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:22</time>
Of these different figures figuring out, like, who can I team up with

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:26</time>
in order to sort of both win these debates, but also who we can bunch

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:31</time>
states together to win the Electoral College come, uh, the 1824 election.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:36</time>
Um, So yeah, that was another sort of Another aspect that I wasn't expecting

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:31:43</time>
when I started off with this topic

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:45</time>
Well, I I tell you what it I mean the way you kind of describe the

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:49</time>
era and the setting in both You know kind of some internal conflicts and

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:52</time>
alliances and then global You know, politics and chess, chess matches, it

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:57</time>
sounds like a prime setting for, to your point earlier, a political thriller.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:02</time>
This sounds great.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:03</time>
Um, it sounds incredibly interesting, so I, I, I'm excited

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:07</time>
to, uh, I'm excited to read this.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:08</time>
Yeah, potentially get our hands on it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:10</time>
I think this could be the next, uh, Hamilton, Quincy Adams.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:16</time>
This is a mini series or something like that, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:19</time>
You know, like, like, let's get some Hollywood writers.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:21</time>
The Writer's Strike just, just ended, right?

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:23</time>
Not too long ago.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:24</time>
So let's get some, some book copies out there and they can

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:27</time>
write the next, uh, next HBO mini series or something like that.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:30</time>
I

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:30</time>
love this.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:31</time>
This is fantastic.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:32</time>
So I can't wait to get this out.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:33</time>
Well, let me, um, let me get again, kind of best place for people to find

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:38</time>
you to look up your book and, and then, uh, and then I'll, I'll sign off here.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:42</time>
But again, this kind of remind everybody, you know, if they're interested in that is

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:47</time>
that is titled just the middle generation or is it the full, you know, John Quincy

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:50</time>
Adams and the Monroe Doctrine, the middle generation, is that the full title?

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:32:55</time>
Uh, so the, the main title is the middle generation and then it's subtitled.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:32:59</time>
A novel of John Quincy Adams and the Monroe Doctrine, um, which it's just in

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:04</time>
this kind of digital age, it's helpful both with the algorithm and just to

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:08</time>
kind of catch people's attention to say like, this is what this product is.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:11</time>
Yeah, sure.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:11</time>
Absolutely.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:12</time>
So that was a part of the thinking, um, there.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:15</time>
But yeah, so, uh, if they're interested in the novel, the easiest place is Amazon.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:19</time>
Um, it's also on, on Barnes and Noble and the other major,

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:23</time>
uh, book selling websites.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:25</time>
Um, if they're interested in following me online, the best places.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:30</time>
I mean, I still call it Twitter.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:32</time>
I guess, technically, it's called X now.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:34</time>
I, I, I

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:35</time>
still call

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:36</time>
it Twitter too.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:37</time>
Yeah, I think most people still call it Twitter.

<cite>Michael:</cite>
<time>00:33:39</time>
Um, at, uh, it's, so, at Michael Zucker

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:42</time>
1.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:43</time>
Cool.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:43</time>
Well, I, I absolutely encourage people to, to look up, uh, Michael's book, The Middle

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:48</time>
Generation, um, subtitle is a novel.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:52</time>
John, uh, John Quincy Adams and the Monroe Doctrine.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:54</time>
So look that up on Amazon.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:56</time>
It sounds absolutely fascinating, especially as a political thriller

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:00</time>
from a first person perspective.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:02</time>
I, it sounds to me like our audience would be incredibly keen on this.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:07</time>
So if you're listening, this is a great kind of, uh, if you're still looking for

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:11</time>
those, those Christmas gift ideas for, for that history fan in your household.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:15</time>
This sounds like it might be right up your alley as

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:18</time>
exactly.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:18</time>
And if you're going to see Napoleon and you want to say, Oh, well, let me tell

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:22</time>
you a little something what happened after Napoleon from the American

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:25</time>
side and flex your knowledge muscle.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:28</time>
This will be a great book to get as well.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:29</time>
There you

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:30</time>
go.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:30</time>
So for those listening, thank you for listening to the talk with history

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:33</time>
podcast and please reach out to us at our website, talkwithhistory.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:36</time>
com, but more importantly, If you know someone else that might enjoy

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:39</time>
this podcast, or you think they might enjoy this book, please shoot

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:43</time>
them a text and share it with them.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:44</time>
We rely on you, our community to grow, and we appreciate you all every day.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:48</time>
We'll talk to you next time.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:49</time>
Thank you.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:51</time>
Yeah, Michael, that was, that was great.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:52</time>
I'm, I'm super interested.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:55</time>
Me too.

<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:55</time>
If you're interested, I know this one's going to

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:57</time>
love to read it.

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:57</time>
I think this is great.

A Political Thriller from the view of John Quincy Adams with Author Michael B Zucker

The Story

Chapters