Meriwether Lewis's Unsolved Death | Lewis & Clark Historic Road Trip

<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:00:00</time>
<p>And when they dug up the body, . The commission wrote in its official</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:00:03</time>
<p>report, even though the impression had long prevailed that Lewis died by</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:00:07</time>
<p>his own hand, it seemed more probable he died by the hand of assassins.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:00:12</time>
<p>And that's what opened up this whole idea that</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:00:27</time>
<p>Welcome to Talk With History.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:00:29</time>
<p>I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jenn.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>YouTube channel journey, and examine history Through deeper conversations</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>with the curious, the explorers and the history lovers out there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Now, Jenn, before we get into this episode intro here, I do want to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>mention if folks are listening to this for the first time, this is our 99th.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>episode</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>and so this is our 99th episode so you're gonna naturally if you're</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>well what are you guys doing for your hundredth episode well you guys are just</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>gonna have to subscribe and follow us to find out the guest the very special guest</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>that we have we have for our hundredth episode it's a truly legit celebrity</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>and big</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>and in a big one especially in her history circle so make sure</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>that you tell your friends and make sure you're following us, either</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Apple podcast, Spotify, wherever you listen, because a hundredth episode, I</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>actually already finished editing it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>So that one is scheduled as we are recording this, but this one will</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>come out and our hundredth episode.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>We'll have a very special guest that I think our listeners are</p>
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<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>getting almost guaranteed to enjoy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Today, we're setting sail, well, technically we're setting off on</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>horseback, on a journey to explore the life and untimely demise of Meriwether</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Lewis, the intrepid co captain of the Lewis and Clark You know him as the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>guy who explored the vast unknown of the American West alongside William Clark.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>But Lewis's story takes a dark turn after their triumphant return.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>In 1809, at the young age of 35, Lewis was found dead under mysterious Was it</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:02:27</time>
<p>a tragic case of suicide, or was there a foul play that led to his demise?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>The evidence is murky, and the debate rages on.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>We'll be diving deep into the final days of Lewis's life, examining the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>clues and exploring the theories behind this historical whodunit.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>So saddle up history detectives.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Join me as we untangle the truth about the mysterious death of Meriwether Lewis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>All right, Jenn.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Meriwether Lewis, Lewis and Clark.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>I know, Big</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:04</time>
<p>name in American history,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>names.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>big name, first name, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:08</time>
<p>He's the beginning of the Lewis and Clark expedition.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>And really when it comes down to it, Lewis is Jefferson's secretary.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>When Jefferson buys the Louisiana Purchase.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>know how I remember that?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>is the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Oh my gosh</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>History.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>The Drunk, there was a Drunk</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>There is a junk history</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>and it wasn't about Meriwether Lewis or Jefferson, but it was about who</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>was that kind of newspaper article writer?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>Calendar, James Calendar.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>we made a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>It was a Drunk History about James Calendar and they mentioned</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>very briefly that Meriwether Lewis is the secretary for Jefferson at the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>So they're close, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:48</time>
<p>They're both from the same area of Virginia.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:50</time>
<p>They've kind of run in the same circles and they're close and he's helped</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:03:57</time>
<p>squash like the Whiskey Rebellion.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>He's part of the Virginia militia and he's just a very trusted ally.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>advisor to Jefferson, and he's kind of an outdoorsy guy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>And so it's really Lewis who brings Clark on board, because Jefferson picks</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Lewis, and Lewis is like, Who have I worked with before that I really liked?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:21</time>
<p>I liked Clark when I when we were in the military</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>had just finished up the Louisiana purchase.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>So Jefferson's Hey,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:28</time>
<p>We need someone to go out and see what I</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:30</time>
<p>you're out doorsy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:31</time>
<p>Go explore all</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>that, you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:33</time>
<p>go see what I bought.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:04:34</time>
<p>a jillion acres of land that I just bought.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:36</time>
<p>And really, I have to give Lewis a lot of credit, and I love his first</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:41</time>
<p>name, Meriwether, it's super cool.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:43</time>
<p>But he's the one who brings</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>the people together.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:04:49</time>
<p>He's the one who kind of hires Sacagawea's husband, who's a French</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>trader, trapper, who knows the area,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>sees the knowledge of Sacagawea, sees her importance.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Clark who brings his enslaved man York with him, but it's Lewis who's very</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:10</time>
<p>adamant that we are not going to treat enslaved like enslaved on this trip.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:16</time>
<p>Everyone's going to get a fair vote.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>Everyone is a member of this expedition and it's Lewis who sets this precedence</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:25</time>
<p>and they very much, even when Sacagawea, they're very much involved in her life</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
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<p>because she's pregnant at the time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:33</time>
<p>They're a part of her delivery.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:35</time>
<p>They all help with her child, as he's growing up.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:40</time>
<p>I mean, Clark will eventually take care of the child.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:05:44</time>
<p>and the expedition's takes two and a half</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:46</time>
<p>yeah, it's a long</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:05:47</time>
<p>time</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:05:47</time>
<p>So by the end of the, the expedition, I mean, her child is probably two years old.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
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<p>And,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:53</time>
<p>like I said, they're just very close and it's, it's Lewis who</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:05:57</time>
<p>sets this whole precedence here.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:01</time>
<p>But People see Lewis's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:05</time>
<p>mental state.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:07</time>
<p>and sometimes he can be melancholy, sometimes he can</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:10</time>
<p>get a little forlorn, depressed.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:14</time>
<p>during the expedition as</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:15</time>
<p>well?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:16</time>
<p>during the expedition, and Jefferson had seen him do it sometimes as well.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:20</time>
<p>There is some family history for Lewis of his father having kind</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:24</time>
<p>of a mental health deterioration.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:29</time>
<p>So there could be a family history of that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:31</time>
<p>And that's not always hereditary, but it can be.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:34</time>
<p>So it's just, you have to, acknowledge</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:36</time>
<p>sure</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:38</time>
<p>Also acknowledge</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:39</time>
<p>that this expedition took so long.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:42</time>
<p>They doubled back a couple times.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:44</time>
<p>And in a way, as much as Meriwether,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:47</time>
<p>Lewis is</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:48</time>
<p>very.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:49</time>
<p>Vital to all the drawings and all the all those things they</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:54</time>
<p>are bringing back, all the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:06:55</time>
<p>the documentation,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:56</time>
<p>he's very good at all of that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:06:58</time>
<p>They aren't quite getting</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:01</time>
<p>the whole, the important thing they were supposed to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:03</time>
<p>get, Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:04</time>
<p>which is the waterway,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:06</time>
<p>They were looking for a waterway from, basically from east to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:09</time>
<p>From east to west.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:10</time>
<p>And so maybe, maybe almost not Mississippi up, they're just looking for a waterway</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:15</time>
<p>that could take you from Pacific, maybe down the Mississippi, maybe to Gulf.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:21</time>
<p>So basically, you're not going completely around South America,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:24</time>
<p>because at the time, there's no Panama.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:26</time>
<p>And so you can tell that Maybe he's in that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:30</time>
<p>And I'm a historian.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:31</time>
<p>I'm just kind of giving an idea.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:33</time>
<p>I don't know.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:34</time>
<p>He's feeling less</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:36</time>
<p>optimistic</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:37</time>
<p>about that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:38</time>
<p>And so then he's the pessimism that he's not hitting the thing that he</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:42</time>
<p>was really supposed to discover.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:07:45</time>
<p>And that's becoming more realistic as the expedition goes on.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:49</time>
<p>I think it's It's something that the general public doesn't really think</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:54</time>
<p>about when you're learning about the whole Lewis and Clark expedition, because we see</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:07:58</time>
<p>it as a, in a, through a fairly romantic</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:01</time>
<p>Mm hmm</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:02</time>
<p>Oh my gosh, that's so amazing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:03</time>
<p>What would it be like to be on the Lewis and Clark expedition?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:06</time>
<p>Exploring this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:08</time>
<p>all this land and seeing Oregon for the first time and all the stuff that the, you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:13</time>
<p>kind of, especially as someone from the West coast, learning about that, but you</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:16</time>
<p>don't think about, well, what was their true mission, their mission, like what</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:20</time>
<p>was their goal and if their goal, like the one thing that they set out to accomplish,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:26</time>
<p>aside from just the general nature of the expedition that they weren't able to.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:08:31</time>
<p>Someone like Mary Weather Lewis that might have affected</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:34</time>
<p>Sure, so you can think, he's almost in charge of</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:36</time>
<p>this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:37</time>
<p>He's worked for Jefferson.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:38</time>
<p>He knows how important this is for Jefferson.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:42</time>
<p>Jefferson hasn't.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:44</time>
<p>just</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:44</time>
<p>said, Oh, and if you find a waterway, that would be great.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:48</time>
<p>He's probably that's what you need to find.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:50</time>
<p>I hope I bought this with a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:52</time>
<p>waterway.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:53</time>
<p>It's a trade thing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:54</time>
<p>And, but even when they come back like you said, it took a couple</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:58</time>
<p>of years and they come back.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:08:59</time>
<p>They are very much treated as celebrities.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:03</time>
<p>This has made news.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:05</time>
<p>I mean, cause they've, they've seen things that never been seen before.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:07</time>
<p>They've discovered things that never been seen there by, by the English settlers.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:13</time>
<p>I know they're meeting American Indians out there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:16</time>
<p>They've seen the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:17</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:09:17</time>
<p>And, French fur</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:18</time>
<p>French, which they've seen, but this is like for the general public, no one's.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:22</time>
<p>And now it's American land.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:24</time>
<p>Cause before it was all French land.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:26</time>
<p>So kind of letting all the Americans know what's out there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:31</time>
<p>So they are seen as, as.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:34</time>
<p>celebrities, . And because of that, after they return home, Lewis is</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:43</time>
<p>rewarded 1600 acres and he is made the governor of the Louisiana Territory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:50</time>
<p>So when you think Louisiana Purchase, Louisiana Territory,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:56</time>
<p>it's bigger than the state.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:58</time>
<p>It's like that area.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:09:59</time>
<p>And so the capital Quotes is in st.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:04</time>
<p>Louis, and that's where he settles.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:06</time>
<p>So</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:07</time>
<p>Yeah, and remember, just for time frame here, I</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:09</time>
<p>mean this is the early 1800s.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:11</time>
<p>So the expedition was 1803 to 1806, and so they come home, great</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:15</time>
<p>fanfare, and he's made the governor of the general Louisiana area.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:20</time>
<p>I don't know what they call it,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:21</time>
<p>so they call it the upper upper Louisiana</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:10:24</time>
<p>Okay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:25</time>
<p>And so he's made governor in 1807.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:27</time>
<p>So he's gotten back 1807, governor of this Louisiana Territory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:32</time>
<p>Now, what starts to happen is he's, he's writing his journals, he wants</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:36</time>
<p>to get his journals published.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:38</time>
<p>He's, he's starting to establish roads.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:41</time>
<p>He's starting to establish laws, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:43</time>
<p>This is a former French territory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:46</time>
<p>This is a very much American Indian territory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:49</time>
<p>So he has to negotiate peace among all these quarreling Indian tribes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:53</time>
<p>And he's trying to enforce these Indian treaties.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:55</time>
<p>And he's trying to protect Western Indian lands and encroachment</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:10:59</time>
<p>because Manifest Destiny is a big</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:02</time>
<p>proponent now of this Lewis and Clark expedition because Americans realize</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:07</time>
<p>that it's all this land and we want to go</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:09</time>
<p>want to go settle it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:12</time>
<p>historian here.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:14</time>
<p>But the, the American government kind of stoked that fire, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:18</time>
<p>It was, it was part of the whole Manifest Destiny and said, Hey, Manifest</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:21</time>
<p>Destiny, partly to get population out there so that they could kind of expand</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:11:26</time>
<p>the American population which would then expand everything else within</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:31</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:31</time>
<p>And so he's, he's fighting DC, which Jefferson's no longer president.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:39</time>
<p>After this, it's going to be Madison, who's very good friends with Jefferson.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:43</time>
<p>So it's not like Lewis still isn't, held in high esteem because he</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:47</time>
<p>is because Madison and Jefferson are basically the same person.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:50</time>
<p>And then you, you're going to have these, you're going People who want</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:54</time>
<p>to come out and settle, you have the American Indians, you have treaties, and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:11:57</time>
<p>he's trying to negotiate all of this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:00</time>
<p>And people in D.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:00</time>
<p>C.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:01</time>
<p>are wondering, why is this so difficult?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:02</time>
<p>Why is, are you having a hard time?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:04</time>
<p>And historians have argued that he was a poor administrator, because</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:07</time>
<p>he was trying to handle all of this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:09</time>
<p>And as he's handling all of this, and bringing in different, Chiefs, he's paying</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:16</time>
<p>for all of these logistics, whether it is to travel in chiefs or bring people,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:22</time>
<p>he's paying for logistics of this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:25</time>
<p>And so he's reaching back to DC to get reimbursed for these things.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:30</time>
<p>And DC is well, you're not doing a very good job.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:38</time>
<p>And we don't believe that this is the these are accurate receipts and it's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:44</time>
<p>putting Lewis in a financial burden.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:47</time>
<p>And so this is why he's traveling to DC.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:51</time>
<p>He's going to DC to Basically be in person, make the argument, talk</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:56</time>
<p>about these are the receipts for this and this is the receipts for</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
<p>this and this is what happened here.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:00</time>
<p>Now</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:06</time>
<p>his letters are not very quick and timely and people equate that to his mental</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:13</time>
<p>illness, that his melancholy, that all these things that he, he wasn't quick</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:19</time>
<p>to respond to the inquiries from D.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:23</time>
<p>C.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:24</time>
<p>and because of that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:26</time>
<p>He, the mental illness, and that's also what people don't trust him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:30</time>
<p>It's also why they feel like he's a poor administrator.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:33</time>
<p>No one knows for sure.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:35</time>
<p>but it could have been other medical reasons that are happening at the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:13:40</time>
<p>time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:40</time>
<p>So he, does the expedition for a couple years,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:44</time>
<p>is kind of disappointed.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:47</time>
<p>I don't know, did he write that in his journals?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:49</time>
<p>I mean, I don't remember, I don't remember, but obviously they didn't</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:52</time>
<p>accomplish the one primary mission.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:54</time>
<p>Accomplished a lot.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:55</time>
<p>Came back, I don't know if he volunteered, asked for, or was saddled</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:13:59</time>
<p>with governorship, but it sounds like he, after spending a couple years</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:03</time>
<p>exploring the wilderness, that's quite a shift, going from one to the other.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:08</time>
<p>Becomes governor of the Upper Louisiana Territory, isn't doing a good</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:12</time>
<p>good job</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:13</time>
<p>is Basically spending money that he doesn't</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:16</time>
<p>have and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:17</time>
<p>trying to get reimbursed for it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
<p>So he says, Hey, I'm going to go make my case to DC.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
<p>I'm going to go talk to Madison who's, I already know because</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:25</time>
<p>he's good buddies with Jefferson.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:27</time>
<p>I'm going to go to DC, make my case, see if they can get them to reimburse</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:31</time>
<p>me for all this stuff so that I can keep the wheel spinning over</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:34</time>
<p>here in Upper Louisiana Territory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:36</time>
<p>Okay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:14:37</time>
<p>Okay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:37</time>
<p>that's the point.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:38</time>
<p>He's, he's leaving St.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:40</time>
<p>Louis to travel to D.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:42</time>
<p>C.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:42</time>
<p>to make the argument about these receipts.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:45</time>
<p>To get reimbursed, so he's not in financial ruin, to kind</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:48</time>
<p>of defend his governorship.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:52</time>
<p>And he's fighting with the former Louisiana governor, who's down</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:14:57</time>
<p>in the lower Louisiana territory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:00</time>
<p>There are differences in governing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:03</time>
<p>Decides</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:04</time>
<p>to travel from St.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:05</time>
<p>Louis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:07</time>
<p>to New Orleans where he's going to get on a big ship and then travel from</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:11</time>
<p>New Orleans across the Gulf over to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:14</time>
<p>Okay, so take the Mississippi down to the, basically the Gulf</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:18</time>
<p>and Ocean go up around the coast.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
<p>And with him, he's bringing I think it was like four big</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:23</time>
<p>trunks, six big trunks of all of his journals to get published.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:27</time>
<p>So finally, that was everybody wanted to see what do these fish look like?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:30</time>
<p>What does this fauna</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:31</time>
<p>look</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:15:31</time>
<p>like, Yeah, it's been a couple years.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:32</time>
<p>It's been a couple years, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:34</time>
<p>And he's finally got them finished.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:35</time>
<p>He's going to bring them to DC as well.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:36</time>
<p>So it's very precious cargo.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:44</time>
<p>So when he hits Memphis, 18.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:49</time>
<p>09.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:49</time>
<p>This</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:50</time>
<p>is around the time when the British are starting to act up with impressments.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
<p>This is going to lead us into the War of 1812.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:15:57</time>
<p>So he's getting a little nervous about going to New Orleans.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:00</time>
<p>He's getting nervous about putting his trunks on a ship and, and traveling</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:05</time>
<p>around Hatteras, North Carolina.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:09</time>
<p>Yeah, and if you've heard any of our past episodes, like that's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:12</time>
<p>very dangerous sailing out there</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:14</time>
<p>sometimes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:15</time>
<p>there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:16</time>
<p>Important documents can be lost forever.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:18</time>
<p>Aaron Burr.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:18</time>
<p>And so he gets nervous and he's when he hits Memphis and he's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:22</time>
<p>I'm going to travel from Memphis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:23</time>
<p>Cause you're like, why doesn't he travel from St.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:25</time>
<p>Louis across?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:26</time>
<p>Why?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:27</time>
<p>Why does he go down to Memphis?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:28</time>
<p>And then, so for Memphis, he goes, I'm going to go across to DC and I'm going to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
<p>so, he's I'm going to go across Tennessee, kind of take that route</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:35</time>
<p>I'm going to get on the Natchez trace, which is a trail that's easily</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:39</time>
<p>traveled and I'm going to go to DC.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:16:41</time>
<p>Gotcha.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:42</time>
<p>So he hits Memphis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:45</time>
<p>He gets malaria.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:47</time>
<p>He gets sick.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:48</time>
<p>And if we know anything about Memphis, mosquitoes, yellow fever, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:54</time>
<p>And he gets sick.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:56</time>
<p>Malaria can make you delirious.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:58</time>
<p>He's taking opium.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:16:59</time>
<p>Those are the kind of pills that you took to combat the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:01</time>
<p>fever that you get with malaria.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:04</time>
<p>And he He has a suicide attempt or that's what they claim.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:09</time>
<p>He was trying to jump off the side of the ship</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:11</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:17:12</time>
<p>He was probably just like super high or hallucinating.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:16</time>
<p>they stop him from doing that and they're like, he had a suicide attempt.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:19</time>
<p>So this is, these are the things that kind of</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:22</time>
<p>back the case of the future</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:25</time>
<p>Suicide claim.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:27</time>
<p>So</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:27</time>
<p>he's there for a couple of weeks.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:28</time>
<p>He, It gets a travel buddy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:31</time>
<p>Basically, his name is Neely, and he's a Chickasaw Indian agent.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:36</time>
<p>He will bring his enslaved man with him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:39</time>
<p>Lewis is traveling with a free black servant, Perna.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:43</time>
<p>He's not.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:45</time>
<p>enslaved.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:46</time>
<p>He's, but he's, hasn't been paid in a while.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:49</time>
<p>So he's owed like 200, so he's traveling with Louis still but he hasn't been paid.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:55</time>
<p>Because Louis doesn't have any money, because it's all tied up in his receipts.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:17:59</time>
<p>Neely comes with him, they take, they take, two big trunks with</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:03</time>
<p>them, two goes with Lewis, two goes with Neely on a a wagon.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:09</time>
<p>And they start to travel from Memphis about two weeks later after he gets better</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:14</time>
<p>to up the Natchez trace up to Nashville.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:16</time>
<p>Cause the Natchez trace takes you from Natchez, Mississippi to Nashville.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:21</time>
<p>And he hits grinder stand alone because two of the horses have run</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:28</time>
<p>away and Neely goes looking for those two horses and he goes by himself.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:34</time>
<p>The two servants, the one enslaved man and the one free man of color travel</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:38</time>
<p>behind Lewis with the four trunks.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:41</time>
<p>Okay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:41</time>
<p>And Grindr stand was like, basically like an inn, like a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:43</time>
<p>place for the people to stop.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:45</time>
<p>So Grinders stand is a stand or an inn.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:48</time>
<p>They call it a stand is kind of a word for in,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:18:51</time>
<p>Oh, okay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:51</time>
<p>and it's located on the Natchez Trace.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:54</time>
<p>It was owned by the grinder.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:18:56</time>
<p>So Robert grinder and Priscilla grinder, but there was no D in their name.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:00</time>
<p>So it's Grinner,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:01</time>
<p>Oh, okay.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:02</time>
<p>but the D was added for the stand.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:04</time>
<p>Grinder stand, but they're Grinner.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:06</time>
<p>And so kind of a, when you're looking for their names in the, in the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:11</time>
<p>archive, there's no D in their names,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:19:14</time>
<p>classic historian switcheroo,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:16</time>
<p>is hard for historians.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:16</time>
<p>There's a lot of these names that we use here are misspelled</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:20</time>
<p>or the spelling is changed.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:22</time>
<p>It was two rough log cabins.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:25</time>
<p>And this is the whole reason why we do this video is we stopped at that</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:30</time>
<p>location where they have recreated grinder stand along the trace.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:34</time>
<p>And there is Merriweather Lewis's grave.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:43</time>
<p>There were two cabins that kind of were adjoined at right angles.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:47</time>
<p>There was kind of a dog trot between them, so they weren't connected.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:51</time>
<p>And that's why when you hear Priscilla Grinder doesn't sleep in the same</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:55</time>
<p>cabin as Merriweather Lewis that night, it's because she's in the other one.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:19:58</time>
<p>A dog trot between them is not a lot, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:01</time>
<p>And with wood planks, there's not a lot.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:04</time>
<p>You can hear, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:05</time>
<p>So just, just bear in mind,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:08</time>
<p>And that's that's what, that's why she's able to hear what</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:11</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:11</time>
<p>Even though she's going to give three separate accounts.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:15</time>
<p>over the years of what happened that</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:17</time>
<p>Like three different</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
<p>three different</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:18</time>
<p>ones,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:20:19</time>
<p>Oh,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:20</time>
<p>even though she really is the only witness, besides the two men</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:26</time>
<p>who are traveling with them, the two men of color, which we'll talk about.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:29</time>
<p>So Meriwether Lewis gets there on the night of October 10th,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
<p>1809.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:35</time>
<p>He</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:35</time>
<p>gets there about six o'clock and He asks for a room, and she gives him</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:41</time>
<p>the one whole cabin, and then she with her children are in another room.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:49</time>
<p>Now, where's Robert, where's her husband?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:54</time>
<p>There's a family folklore from the Grinder family that Robert</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:20:58</time>
<p>caught Priscilla and Louis in bed</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:00</time>
<p>together.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:01</time>
<p>And Robert was will be the one to shoot Lewis and then he runs away to Texas</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:08</time>
<p>and that really did happen right after Meriwether Lewis is killed at the log</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:12</time>
<p>cabin.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:13</time>
<p>Robert is gone to Texas.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:14</time>
<p>He runs away.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:16</time>
<p>I didn't know that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:16</time>
<p>So this stand used to be called</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:21</time>
<p>Indian Line</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:22</time>
<p>stand, and they had just opened it because the Chickasaw had seceded this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:26</time>
<p>land to Tennessee in 1805, and they had just established this stand in 1807.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:31</time>
<p>So it's only been around for two years.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:33</time>
<p>But Robert Grinder made his money by selling alcohol to the American Indians.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:37</time>
<p>That's the whole, that's what he, that was his business there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:40</time>
<p>So he's not like the most upstanding guy.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:43</time>
<p>You have to understand, the trace, too, is not a very, lawful area.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:21:48</time>
<p>Yeah, I mean, it's a wilderness path.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:51</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:52</time>
<p>And so you're going to get highwaymen, you're going to get bandits,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:56</time>
<p>because most people are traveling with some kind of means with them.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:21:59</time>
<p>And it's just think of Robin Hood.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:02</time>
<p>It's a very easy way to rob people because who are they going to rob?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:06</time>
<p>We're going to get right here along this middle of nowhere path.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:11</time>
<p>So Meriwether Lewis gets there before his enslaved men who are coming behind</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:15</time>
<p>him with these four trunks, gets a room.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:18</time>
<p>He gets, he eats dinner, Priscilla and the children go to the other room.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:23</time>
<p>cabin and he's there in the night or before the end of the night, the two</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:30</time>
<p>men of color get there and they're put up in like a barn, like a lean to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:35</time>
<p>that's a little bit away from the house.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:36</time>
<p>Not far, but because we've been there, if you want to see our video, it's</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:40</time>
<p>probably where the parking lot is.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:41</time>
<p>So it's not</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:42</time>
<p>Yeah, everything's pretty</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:22:42</time>
<p>close</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:43</time>
<p>pretty close.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:44</time>
<p>And they there and there for the night.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:47</time>
<p>Well, about two o'clock in the middle of the night, two gunshots</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:53</time>
<p>pretty close together go off.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:55</time>
<p>Now, Priscilla like I said, there's three different stories that she gives.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:22:59</time>
<p>She gives a story right away when Neely gets there,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:03</time>
<p>the day later, Neely will get there after he's died.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:05</time>
<p>Neely will be the one who will be the eyewitness to, he'll</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:09</time>
<p>hear Priscilla's first story.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:10</time>
<p>Her first story is, she heard the two gunshots.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:13</time>
<p>She had her children go wake the servants, the two men, the two men went to Lewis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:19</time>
<p>Lewis was distraught and he's, he gave these great like last lines,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:24</time>
<p>like I am too strong to die.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:26</time>
<p>The Lord take me.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:27</time>
<p>He was begging for water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:29</time>
<p>They gave him water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:31</time>
<p>He basically bled out and died.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:35</time>
<p>About six years later, she's interviewed again for a newspaper and she</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:42</time>
<p>claims that Louis came to her door.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:47</time>
<p>After she heard the two gunshots, knocked on her door, screaming and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:51</time>
<p>like moaning, asking for water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:53</time>
<p>She was too afraid to give him water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:23:55</time>
<p>She heard him scratching the, the gourd of the bucket at</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:01</time>
<p>the well, trying to get water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:03</time>
<p>And she's still too afraid to go out and give him water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:06</time>
<p>He comes to her door again, knocking for water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:10</time>
<p>Please help me get some water.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:11</time>
<p>He , wanders around, they see him like, fall down.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:15</time>
<p>He falls over a tree stump, he falls down, and then, and then she sends her</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:19</time>
<p>two kids to go get the two servants.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:21</time>
<p>And then two servants come and help him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:24</time>
<p>And same thing, he's asking for water, they give him water and he dies.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:28</time>
<p>And then the end of her life it's, it's a It's, he was the night</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:34</time>
<p>he was screaming and yelling.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:36</time>
<p>He was like talking to himself.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:39</time>
<p>He, it was almost like he was having a conversation with himself at dinner.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:43</time>
<p>And then he got very aggressive.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
<p>He looked out the window and was like talking to someone</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:47</time>
<p>who was very aggressive.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:49</time>
<p>And she asked him questions and he like just stared at her and she</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:53</time>
<p>didn't understand what was happening.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:54</time>
<p>And he was, he was just very like, someone's following me.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:24:57</time>
<p>Like he was very anxious.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:00</time>
<p>And.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:01</time>
<p>She wasn't sure what that was all and that's like the end of her life.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:05</time>
<p>She's telling this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:05</time>
<p>story.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:06</time>
<p>So three separate</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:07</time>
<p>stories Even though she really is the only eyewitness and then the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:11</time>
<p>family story is Robert grinder</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:15</time>
<p>. When the ser when when Perna and Neely's servant find the Lewis in the room.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:26</time>
<p>He's conscious, but a piece of his forehead is blown</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:28</time>
<p>away, exposing his brain.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:31</time>
<p>And it says without having blood much, which I find very hard to believe,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:35</time>
<p>but he was wearing a Buffalo robe, Buffalo skin robe, probably what he</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:38</time>
<p>got from his expedition, because he probably gathered a lot of things.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:42</time>
<p>He's I bet the blood, you couldn't tell from the Buffalo skin.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:46</time>
<p>And he had uncovered the side with, he showed the, but a bullet</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:49</time>
<p>had entered right under his chest.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:51</time>
<p>So when I say he was shot in the gut, like he was shot in the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:53</time>
<p>gut, like right under his chest.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:25:55</time>
<p>It was the second and he begged them to take his rifle and blow out his brain.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:01</time>
<p>So he had asked them to finish the job.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:03</time>
<p>And in return, he'd give him all the money he had in his trunk.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:06</time>
<p>He said, I'm no coward, but I'm so strong, so hard to die.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:12</time>
<p>He told Perna, not to be afraid that he would not hurt him, but</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:16</time>
<p>two hours later he had died just as the sun rose above the trees.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:21</time>
<p>They kind of just let him die.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:22</time>
<p>He will bury him in the Pioneer Cemetery, which is right beside</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:27</time>
<p>the cabin, if you see our</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:28</time>
<p>like 50</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:29</time>
<p>So Pioneer Cemetery what are you talking about?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:32</time>
<p>When people take this Natchez Trace, think of it a lot like the Oregon Trail.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:36</time>
<p>Think of people are settling, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:38</time>
<p>They're moving their families and people will die along the trail</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:41</time>
<p>because of disease and sickness.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:43</time>
<p>And it's very sad even when we looked at some of them that are marked, which I'm</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:47</time>
<p>sure that is very few that are marked.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:50</time>
<p>But do you see</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:51</time>
<p>infant?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:26:52</time>
<p>I think we saw</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:53</time>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:54</time>
<p>Do you see a whole families?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:55</time>
<p>You see it, so it very much is reminiscent of the Oregon Trail, where people will</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:26:59</time>
<p>get sick, it'll take out a whole family.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:02</time>
<p>You probably have different kind of massacres that are</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:03</time>
<p>happening along the trace.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:05</time>
<p>I mean, this is still very volatile, white settlers, American Indians.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:10</time>
<p>And it's just a, a cemetery that was along the trace there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:15</time>
<p>And so he's buried there in that cemetery.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:24</time>
<p>Neely wrote a letter to Jefferson saying that he decently buried him</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:28</time>
<p>as I could in that place, and if there's anything else they'd like him</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:32</time>
<p>to do, he's, he waited instructions.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:35</time>
<p>So the only doctor to examine Lewis's body did not do so</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:38</time>
<p>until 40 years later in 1848.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:40</time>
<p>The Tennessee State Commission, including Dr.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:43</time>
<p>Samuel Moore, was charged with locating Lewis's grave.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:46</time>
<p>So there was some guy who ran the cemetery who knew where Lewis's grave was.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:50</time>
<p>It's it's over here.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:52</time>
<p>And when they dug up the body, they verified that there was a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:54</time>
<p>gunshot to the head and to the gut.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:27:57</time>
<p>The commission wrote in its official report, even though the impression</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:01</time>
<p>had long prevailed that Lewis died by his own hand, it seemed more probable</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:06</time>
<p>he died by the hand of assassins.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:08</time>
<p>And that's what opened up this whole idea that it wasn't suicide.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:14</time>
<p>It</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:15</time>
<p>Well, to be perfectly just from a common sense perspective, it, it</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:21</time>
<p>seems unlikely to me that someone would try to shoot themselves in the gut.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:26</time>
<p>And then in the head, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:28</time>
<p>Like he would do this himself.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:29</time>
<p>Like he would try</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:30</time>
<p>Yeah, well, if they think he shot himself in the head first,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:33</time>
<p>And then he tried to shoot</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:34</time>
<p>yeah, which I think you'd be so delirious from a headshot.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:39</time>
<p>I mean, your brain is exposed.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:28:41</time>
<p>Whole thing is just</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:42</time>
<p>a gun.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:43</time>
<p>Right.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:43</time>
<p>So it just seems.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:45</time>
<p>improbable, but because Jefferson and Clark, when they both hear of</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:52</time>
<p>the suicide, and because of what had happened two weeks earlier with them,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:28:56</time>
<p>with him trying to jump off the boat, and because they knew him to be melancholy</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:01</time>
<p>at times and not good keeping up his correspondence, they weren't surprised</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:06</time>
<p>by the suicide the suicide theory.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:09</time>
<p>And because of that, you get.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:11</time>
<p>Like I said, famous historian Stephen Ambrose, who wrote Undaunted Courage</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:15</time>
<p>about the whole Lewis and Clark expedition, who's not questioning the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:18</time>
<p>suicides.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:29:19</time>
<p>Yeah it was just kind of universally</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:21</time>
<p>very much.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:22</time>
<p>And because there could be a family component because, and for me, there is</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:29</time>
<p>one thing that kind of really is strong for me that it, that it was more suicide</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:35</time>
<p>than someone else is that when Lewis sees.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:38</time>
<p>the two servants.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:39</time>
<p>He doesn't say, someone shot me, right?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:43</time>
<p>He doesn't say this was someone else.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:46</time>
<p>Now, he doesn't say he was robbed, although no money is found that he</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:50</time>
<p>had, he had borrowed money when he went to Fort Pickering to make the trip.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:55</time>
<p>The money's gone.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:56</time>
<p>But there could be other people.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:29:59</time>
<p>Plus, there are other theories.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:02</time>
<p>People have put forth James Wilkinson that was the governor of Louisiana.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:06</time>
<p>That didn't like him very much, that was kind of following him,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:10</time>
<p>that he had paid someone to do it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:12</time>
<p>And that's kind of what he was so kind of afraid about.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:15</time>
<p>Like he knew someone was after him and that he was more mad about the situation.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:22</time>
<p>So he's not going to be like, someone shot me.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:24</time>
<p>He was more like, why can't I just die just so now there's other</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:31</time>
<p>theories against the suicide that he.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:34</time>
<p>was not in his right state of mind, and the theories for that are the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:39</time>
<p>malaria because of the opium and syphilis has been put because,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:48</time>
<p>and Clark has a child with an American Indian woman while he's on the expedition.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:54</time>
<p>Lewis?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:30:55</time>
<p>Oh, Clark does.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:30:56</time>
<p>So it's not far fetched to think Lewis probably wasn't sleeping</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:00</time>
<p>with American Indian women as well.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:31:02</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:03</time>
<p>And you see there is evidence of Lewis looking up ways to cure</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:10</time>
<p>syphilis, ways to cure venereal disease.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:14</time>
<p>And he was taking, I think it was Mercury tablets or something to help and but</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:21</time>
<p>if everybody knows stages of syphilis do involve mental delirium because</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:27</time>
<p>it does it's a disease that affects your brain and so those are theories.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:33</time>
<p>that family has put forth about his erratic behavior, about the way he was</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:38</time>
<p>acting, about the melancholy, about all of these things where he's so good in some</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:43</time>
<p>essences of his job as governor, and then he'll be so backwards and not communicate.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:47</time>
<p>And then he's so good again.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:48</time>
<p>And then he's so backwards that he he's having these issues with this mental.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:52</time>
<p>health, and it's brought on by these illnesses.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:31:55</time>
<p>Now, the family has tried to exhume the grave, because if you can exhume</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:00</time>
<p>the grave and get DNA samples, which would still be present in bone</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:05</time>
<p>marrow, you can test for those things.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:08</time>
<p>And it could give some families, some closure or to try to make sense</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:12</time>
<p>of these these very few eyewitness stories that you have which really</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:16</time>
<p>one lady changing her story three times and Maybe putting together</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:19</time>
<p>what's really going on with Lewis.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:21</time>
<p>don't know if the family feels ashamed of the suicide I don't know if that is</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:25</time>
<p>the case or they just want more answers</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:29</time>
<p>But the family has signed a suicide petition over 200 family members.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:32</time>
<p>Now, Lewis doesn't have any direct descendants because he</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:35</time>
<p>never had any children, but he had sisters who had children.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:39</time>
<p>He has nieces and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:40</time>
<p>and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:40</time>
<p>He had, and they're descendants of the Lewis family.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:43</time>
<p>So he does have</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:44</time>
<p>that</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:46</time>
<p>that.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:46</time>
<p>They are a</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:32:47</time>
<p>and they're</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:48</time>
<p>And there's like people in William and Mary or Lewis family members.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:53</time>
<p>And so they have, they're all on board with this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:32:56</time>
<p>They would really love to have this body exhumed for testing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:00</time>
<p>Now this area, and we talked about it, is owned by the National Park Service,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:04</time>
<p>and the National Park Service does not do disinterments to test for any kind of</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:12</time>
<p>Yeah, I think you even said that they, it was one of</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:33:14</time>
<p>those things they just can't set</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:16</time>
<p>They don't want to set the precedence, and then, when you see</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:19</time>
<p>our video, you see how sporadic these pioneer graves are, there really is no</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:25</time>
<p>rhyme or reason to how they're buried.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:27</time>
<p>It looks very haphazard and scattered as a pioneer cemetery would be.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:32</time>
<p>And so the national park service is concerned about disrupting other</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:35</time>
<p>graves, which completely makes sense.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:38</time>
<p>I don't think Stephen Ambrose did a great job.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:41</time>
<p>I think because it probably was a secondary story to what he was telling.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:45</time>
<p>And he just kind of, Because Thomas Jefferson, and William Clark</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:49</time>
<p>are not questioning the suicide, he just says that is accurate.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:53</time>
<p>Instead of what, there's other stuff, if you were just investigating the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:33:57</time>
<p>death, there's other stuff around the death that probably could Use</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:01</time>
<p>more of a lens to look through.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:02</time>
<p>And as historians today have done more, a deeper dive into those things</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:06</time>
<p>and giving them more probability, which is only could be answered by,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:12</time>
<p>So, how did his, his journals and all that stuff finally, I</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:16</time>
<p>still, do they still make it to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:18</time>
<p>DC?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:18</time>
<p>He still made it.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:19</time>
<p>Neely took them?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:20</time>
<p>So they, what's the aftermath here?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:22</time>
<p>Clark, he has a great life.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:24</time>
<p>He lives to old age, has a bunch of kids takes care of second to be</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:28</time>
<p>a son he is very much a, a mean</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:32</time>
<p>enslaver, which is too bad that Lewis couldn't have been</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:35</time>
<p>more of an influence on him.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:37</time>
<p>Perna, Perna tries to go to Jefferson's house to get his 200, turned away by</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:43</time>
<p>Jefferson, ends up committing suicide.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:45</time>
<p>So what did he know?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:49</time>
<p>What did he not know?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:51</time>
<p>Maybe he's just, so destitute as well.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:34:54</time>
<p>did he actually</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:56</time>
<p>Yeah, did he actually commit suicide?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:34:58</time>
<p>His journals eventually make it to DC and he is completely</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:01</time>
<p>cleared of all wrongdoing.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:04</time>
<p>So he was right all</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:04</time>
<p>He was</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:05</time>
<p>right all along.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:05</time>
<p>All his debts are paid.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:07</time>
<p>He was right all along.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:09</time>
<p>He's completely exonerated.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:11</time>
<p>When they finally get his letters and get all of his stuff, they</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:14</time>
<p>realize he has done nothing wrong.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:16</time>
<p>he's been doing his best out</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:18</time>
<p>He's been doing his best.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:19</time>
<p>Everything is documented and he's completely exonerated and paid.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:23</time>
<p>So really the name of Lewis as a leader holds tight today as</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:31</time>
<p>an influencer holds tight today.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:33</time>
<p>It's just the end of his</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:34</time>
<p>of his</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:35</time>
<p>that has the big question mark.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:37</time>
<p>too, so much stuff going on, whether it's, it's disease or</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:41</time>
<p>mental or external circumstances.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:35:44</time>
<p>It sounds like it sounds like those last couple of years were pretty tumultuous</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:48</time>
<p>and like I said, for a man that's so important to American history, so</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:53</time>
<p>tied, everybody learns about the Lewis and</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:55</time>
<p>Clark Expedition.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:35:56</time>
<p>He's the first name in the Lewis and Clark Expedition.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:36:00</time>
<p>For his end of life to be such a question of American history,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:36:04</time>
<p>I just think it deserves more</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:05</time>
<p>of American history, I just it deserves some more answers.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:11</time>
<p>Place to visit.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:12</time>
<p>It's a fun video to watch.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:14</time>
<p>So obviously that link will be in the show notes of this.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:17</time>
<p>But I would encourage you guys about an hour outside of Nashville.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:19</time>
<p>If you want to go visit it, it's kind of out there.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:21</time>
<p>If you want to go do some outdoorsy stuff, but it was pretty neat.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:29</time>
<p>the Lewis and Clark expedition stands as a monumental</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:33</time>
<p>achievement in American history.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:35</time>
<p>And Lewis's role in it should not be forgotten.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:40</time>
<p>Lewis alongside William Clark led the historic Corps of Discovery expedition,</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:45</time>
<p>forging a path westward and opening up vast new territories in the United States.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:50</time>
<p>He documented countless plant and animal species, meticulously mapped</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:36:55</time>
<p>the unknown and fostered relationships with Native American tribes.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:00</time>
<p>Though his final chapter remains a mystery, Lewis's legacy as a trailblazer</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:05</time>
<p>is undeniable, but in the end, did Lewis succumb to his own demons or was</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:09</time>
<p>there a more sinister plot at play?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:12</time>
<p>remains shrouded in mystery.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:19</time>
<p>Thank you for listening to the Talk with History podcast, and please reach out to</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:22</time>
<p>us at our website, talk with history.com.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:24</time>
<p>But more importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy this</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:27</time>
<p>podcast, please share it with shoot 'em a text and tell 'em to look us up.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:31</time>
<p>We rely on you, our community to grow and we appreciate you all every day.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:37:36</time>
<p>We'll talk to you next time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:37</time>
<p>time.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:37</time>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:42</time>
<p>Hey, let me record this real fast so you can cut it in.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:45</time>
<p>Nearly.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:47</time>
<p>So the guy who's traveling with Lewis, he continues for three more</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:51</time>
<p>years as an agent to the Chickasaws.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:52</time>
<p>And then he's abruptly discharged by the secretary of war for incompetence.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:37:57</time>
<p>And then he disappears from the pages of history.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:00</time>
<p>Really?</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:01</time>
<p>Yeah.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:01</time>
<p>Just poof.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:38:02</time>
<p>exactly.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:03</time>
<p>Huh.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:38:04</time>
<p>So that all these kinds of people</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:06</time>
<p>surrounded.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:07</time>
<p>This would make such an movie.</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:10</time>
<p>You could totally just like kind of start from the tail end of the</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:13</time>
<p>expedition and follow Lewis all the way</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Jenn:</cite>
<time>00:38:16</time>
<p>It's very</p>
<p></p>
<cite>Scott:</cite>
<time>00:38:18</time>
<p>Huh.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p>