Road Trip to Arlington | General Doolittle & the Sullivan Brothers - Talk With History

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Imagine walking through the quiet rolling hills of Arlington National Cemetery.

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Every white headstone tells a story of service, but today we are stopping at

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two grave sites that represent the very heart of the American spirit during

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the darkest days of World War II.

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One is the resting place of a pioneer, a man who proved that no

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target was out of reach even when the world felt like it was crumbling.

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The other is a site that honors the sacrifice of five brothers.

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Welcome to Talk With History.

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One filmmaker, one historian leading history-inspired world travels

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for the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

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I'm your host Scott, here with my wife and historian Jenn.

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Hello.

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Today, we're taking you to the hallowed ground of Arlington to

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honor some of the most recognizable names from the Greatest Generation.

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We're visiting the grave of General James Doolittle, the mastermind behind the

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daring 1942 raid on Tokyo that lifted a nation's spirits when we needed it most.

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We'll talk about the legacy of the Sullivan brothers, five siblings

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from Waterloo, Iowa, who insisted on serving together on the USS Juneau.

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Their background, their bond, and their ultimate sacrifice was so

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profound that it changed the way our military operates forever.

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Today, we are paying our respects to the legends of Arlington National Cemetery.

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All right, Jenn, so before... Yes, you don't recognize me now.

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Before we get into our main topic here, I do wanna get some shouts because we got

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some five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts.

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Thank you.

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So after our, our last couple calls out, we, I saw our, our, our review jump up.

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So if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, keep it up, folks.

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My goal, I would love to get to 100 reviews by the end of the year.

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We're in the mid-50s, l- uh, higher 50s now.

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But- We have to catch

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the History Channel

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... we gotta catch the History Channel that's got a couple million.

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So, but we had some five-star reviews.

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Two folks who left us five-star reviews, um, wrote us a little review.

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This, so this one is from Sandra Dee.

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There's four Es in that, if you're listening.

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So the S- Sandra Dee wrote, "History is great. Great topics and great narration.

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I just found you and can't wait to binge the backlog." Great to have you, Sandra.

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Thank you so much for, for the five-star review.

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And then this one is from Sub Vet Steve.

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Walk and talk- the mes- the title is Walk and Talk with History.

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"I have been following you, following your videos on YouTube for a while now.

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I just started watching your podcast.

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I find them very interesting and inform- formative.

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I find your take unique as a Navy submarine vet." Mm. So thank

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you so much, Sub Vet Steve- Yeah

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um, for that.

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It was, that was, uh, super fun to kinda get those reviews directly from, from our

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listeners, so we really appreciate it.

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Also, we're getting enough lifetime members now.

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Remember, you can go check that out at thehistoryroadtrip.com.

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We're getting a left- enough lifetime members now that, uh, my outro is getting

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I think we've got, gosh, over 20 now, if you're counting some of our legacy folks.

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Thank you.

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So we've got a bunch of new folks on board that are lifetime members largely because

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So our outro is getting so long with all these lifetime members that we

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Yeah.

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So

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Jenn, World War II history.

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Yes.

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People love World War II history.

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Well, it was a huge war, and it, it saved the world, but-

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It was

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... when we talk about the two areas of history we're gonna talk about,

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the Doolittle Raid and the Sullivan Brothers, both of these events are

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precipitated because of Pearl Harbor.

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Right.

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So when you think of December 7th, 1941, the day that lives in infamy,

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it was when America came under attack from the Imperial Empire of Japan.

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And so many men were killed, and in such a vast amount of

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time, and entombed in ships.

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Think of the Arizona, right?

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It was just a huge shock to America, the US Navy.

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So Doolittle Raid is gonna be in response to that, and the Sullivan Brothers,

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when we talk about them, they have a sister who has a boyfriend named

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Bill Ball, who was on the Arizona.

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And so they all join up because of their sister's boyfriend, and and Doolittle

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Raid is a response to Pearl Harbor.

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So let's talk about the Doolittle Raid.

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Yeah, and, and I, and I wanna remember our, our younger listeners and

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watchers, 'cause we do get some folks commenting, we had not pulled, been,

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been pulled into the war yet, right?

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No.

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We had- we hadn't really been, been pulled in, right?

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We were kinda doing this we were staying out of it type thing, and then

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when we got struck at Pearl Harbor, gloves were off and we were all in.

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Yes.

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We were helping the British, so you f- you know, Americans were going

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over and fighting with the British.

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They were becoming, I wouldn't say British subjects, but they were flying

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for England, and we were helping with supplies and things like that to England,

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but we were not entering the war.

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Yeah.

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We were really trying to take a stance of neutrality, and because at the time

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we didn't w- know exactly how bad the, um, the Socialist Party of Germany, the

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Nazis, had, had gotten, we didn't know what they were doing there at the time.

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And really, all of that doesn't really come out- Until the end of the war

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Yeah.

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So I, I just wanna remind our, our younger listeners, our you- younger

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viewers of that, is that is, that is why these two that we're about to talk

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about, General Doolittle and the Sullivan brothers that is why Pearl Harbor really

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was kind of the, the spark that lit the fire that s- you know, got kinda

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Doolittle his fame and then what brought the Sullivan brothers into the war.

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But know that the war has been raging in- Yep ... Europe for years now.

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Yep.

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And Poland's been taken over, France has been taken over.

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So it's been, it's been raging for years, but America has tried to stay out of it.

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Now, you also have to bear in mind, we talk about this, the

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technology of the wars, Germany was at the peak of it right now.

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Germany and Japan are at the top of their game right now.

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America is not.

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When it comes to world powers, we're like seventh at the time.

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We're not making warships, we're not making planes, we're not doing any of

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that, and we're just kind of maintaining.

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And so Germany, tip of the spear, they are turning out

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diesel subs.

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So they're, they're at the pin- the pinnacle of their-

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Yeah

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... technology, and so is Japan with their Zero aircraft.

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And, and that's, and that's why what Doolittle did was pretty incredible.

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So December 7th happens, America is decimated, and they are fearful that

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the Japanese are gonna go further east.

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They're worried that the Japanese now are, uh, Pearl H- Hawaii was

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just a, a, a, a stopping point.

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Yeah, just kind of a stopping point.

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Yeah.

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'Cause if, if people don't know, it's only like a week-long ship ride, right?

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It's only about seven days from Hawaii to the coast of California.

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Yeah ... but folks need to remember, right, and from our Navy days, we

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know it's only a, it's only a one-week kinda boat ride, right, on the ship-

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Mm-hmm

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from Hawaii to the coast of California.

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That is, in Navy terms, that is spitting distance.

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Nothing.

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And so when you think about that these- Planes were launched

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from aircraft carriers, Japanese aircraft carriers to Hawaii.

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The, the fear was, oh my gosh, they're gonna attack the western part

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of the continental United States.

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So that's what Doolittle is in response to.

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Doolittle is trying to take the war to the Pacific, and if you know anything

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about history, he's successful at that.

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But that, that's what he's trying to do, and that's what the

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success of it is trying to do.

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But how do you do this?

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We are not the Navy that we are today.

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We are not this aviation Navy at the time.

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I would say because of Pearl Harbor, we become a big aviation Navy because

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what is out to sea during the attack on Pearl Harbor is the aircraft carriers.

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That's why you don't hear of aircraft carriers being sunk at Pearl Harbor.

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Yeah.

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It's all battleships because the Navy at the time was a battleship navy.

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That's what we thought of the Navy, big guns, big battleships,

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get up close and just fire.

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It wasn't so much getting planes on the, the ships and getting 'em close.

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That is all necessity after Pearl Harbor.

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So that's where this idea of bombers on an aircraft carrier comes from.

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We hadn't really been experimenting with that yet.

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We hadn't been trying that yet.

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So Doolittle Lieutenant Colonel James Doolittle, he's gonna plan this attack.

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He's gonna lead this attack.

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He's gonna take the B-25 bomber.

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It is a lighter aircraft even then.

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He makes it even lighter by taking off all of its guns and extra fuel

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tanks, and trying to get as close as they can to Japan to fire on Tokyo.

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But unfortunately, Pearl Harbor happens December 7th.

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Not only are they trying to reconstruct, but they're trying, what's the response?

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So Doolittle says, "Let's try this response.

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Let's get these medium weight bombers.

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Let's launch 'em off a carrier, and let's bomb them, and- Whatever damage

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we can do, whether or not it'll scare them enough to know that we

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can respond to this kind of attack.

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And so they practice.

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They draw the lines on runways, they're taking all the weight off, and they're

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seeing if they can get these planes off the ground from the marks on the

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ground the size of an aircraft carrier.

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I didn't know they did that.

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That's cool

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... they, they, and they c- they kept trying and kept trying.

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And so much so, like, this happens in April of 1942, so- The D-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:27</time>
the Doolittle

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:27</time>
Raid ... the Doolittle Raid.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:28</time>
So this is how quick they mount this response and they practice this.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:33</time>
Uh, they get their best pilots, they fly 16 of these aircraft off, five

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:37</time>
crew in a B-25, and again, they're, they're taking off any weight that

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:43</time>
they can, all the guns that they have.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:45</time>
They take them off and put broomsticks in there- Yeah ... to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:47</time>
look like they have guns.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:49</time>
Their whole idea is, "We're gonna be fast enough to hit them, we won't need defense.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:54</time>
We'll be on the offense the whole time, and then we'll get out of there." And

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:11:56</time>
like Scott said, the plan was to make it back, but when they're spotted early on-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:03</time>
By the Japanese

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:04</time>
by the Japanese, they have to quickly decide, "We have just

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:08</time>
enough fuel to make it there.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:10</time>
Who still wants to do this?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:12</time>
You'll have to end up ditching.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:14</time>
You could try to fly to China, who will be friendly at the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:17</time>
time, and maybe make it home.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:18</time>
But it's up to you." In the end, they really go, "It's up to you what you do.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:22</time>
These are what you can do, but you have basically enough fuel to make it to Tokyo.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:26</time>
Who wants out?" And nobody wants out.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:29</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:29</time>
Everybody wants to do this.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:31</time>
Doolittle will fly in the very first plane off the carrier, so, um, the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:36</time>
number one B-25 off is Doolittle.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:38</time>
He flies it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:39</time>
And then 16 others will go after.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:42</time>
And they are successful.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:43</time>
They do bring an attack to Tokyo.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:45</time>
Now, some will go to China, one will go to Russia, uh, one will actually,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:50</time>
uh, ditch into the, to the ocean.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:52</time>
But because they are successful, because they launch this counterattack, Ja-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:12:58</time>
the Japanese pull back their offensive, and that was, that's what makes this

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:02</time>
so successful, is now the Japanese, the war is taken to the Pacific.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:07</time>
And as you know, the two fronts will be, you know, Germany and and the Pacific.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:11</time>
But that's, it's because of this Doolittle Raid that the, the front

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:14</time>
gets pulled back to the Pacific, and it's because of the success of this.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:20</time>
And so we were in Arlington, and we came upon James Doolittle's grave, and what's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:26</time>
so interesting- is I was there April 18th.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:30</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:31</time>
And I did not even realize- Like the day

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:32</time>
of the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:32</time>
raid ... the day of the raid.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:34</time>
I did not even realize I was there that day, came upon his grave,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:37</time>
and wanted to tell his story.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:39</time>
So, the raid's named for him because he's the one who thinks of it all.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:42</time>
he gets the Medal of Honor for this raid.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:45</time>
Yeah, and one interesting anecdote that I found when I was making a video

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:48</time>
was I guess they, the targets that they hit when they finally flew over

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:52</time>
Japan and dropped the bombs weren't the exact targets that they had planned on.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:55</time>
And so Doolittle actually thought he was gonna get fired by the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:13:59</time>
time he got back because he didn't hit the intended targets.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:01</time>
But the success of the bombing run was so great publicly, and what it caused

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:09</time>
Japan to do, like you said, to kind of pull back, so they had, they knew now

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:11</time>
all of a sudden they had to defend their home front, that he didn't get fired.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:15</time>
He got promoted.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:15</time>
I think he skipped colonel and went straight to brigadier general

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:18</time>
or something like that, one star.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:20</time>
And, and then he got awarded the Medal of Honor.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
So it's kind of funny that you, you, you carry out this, this daring mission

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:26</time>
that's, you know, lives in history now, thinks he's gonna get fired,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:30</time>
and then, then he gets promoted.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:31</time>
Well, it's, it's so funny because they, they're launching

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:35</time>
this experiment anyway, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:37</time>
And Doolittle is, is, he's all in.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:39</time>
Like we're gonna, we're gonna launch these bombers off an aircraft carrier.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:42</time>
We're gonna make it work.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:43</time>
Then they get spotted.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:44</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:44</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:45</time>
The Hornet gets spotted, and so they gotta launch early.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:47</time>
He's gonna launch these bombers off a carrier, but he's gonna do it further

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:52</time>
out than they thought they were gonna be.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:54</time>
They don't quite make it to their point, their destinations.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:57</time>
He's, doesn't stop him from bombing.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:14:58</time>
He's still gonna bomb Japan- Yeah ... and give them an awakening, a response,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:03</time>
and then he's gonna try to survive.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:05</time>
So he actually does survive.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:07</time>
Doolittle is one of the people who make it to China, and the Chinese

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:10</time>
actually hide him and help him, and the Chinese Will pay for this.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:15</time>
They have a lot of people who will come under attack from the Japanese

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:18</time>
because of their help to the Americans.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:20</time>
Um, and he actually makes it back relatively early and is able to

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:23</time>
fight w- in the rest of the war.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:25</time>
, and it was, it was neat for you able to see his gravesite at Arlington 'cause

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:28</time>
we've been to Arlington, if you guys have been following us for a while, we've

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:31</time>
been to Arlington a whole bunch of times.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:32</time>
So if you guys are curious you know, search the Talk With History website.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:35</time>
But, uh, it was cool for you to be able to go and visit his gravesite while you're

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:39</time>
there with, with John Kiriakou- Mm-hmm ... who we'll, we'll talk about our, our

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:42</time>
videos that we did with him, you know, in future episodes here coming up soon.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:46</time>
Now, I had only learned about the Sullivan brothers because you had bought this World

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:50</time>
War II poster, and you had - we, there's a flea market close by, and Jenn loves

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:15:54</time>
her history stuff, like as anybody will know, and there was kind of, it came out

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:00</time>
after all of this stuff happened with the brothers, and there, but it be- kind

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:04</time>
of became like a rallying cry, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:07</time>
They did their part- Mm-hmm ... I think is what the- Yeah ... poster says.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:10</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:10</time>
And so tell us a little bit about the Sullivan brothers, and there's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:13</time>
actually a movie that came out a couple years after this happened as well.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:17</time>
Like a year.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:17</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:17</time>
It's so funny.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:18</time>
They, they capitalized quickly on the brothers and their story.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:22</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:22</time>
So the brothers are responding to Pearl Harbor, and then

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:26</time>
they, they're lost in 1942.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:28</time>
The poster comes out in 1943.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:30</time>
The movie comes out in 1944.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:32</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:33</time>
So they have five brothers from Waterloo, Iowa, and all with the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:38</time>
last name Sullivan, so that's why when you hear the Sullivan brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:40</time>
Um, George is 27, Francis, Frank, is 26, Jo- Joseph, Joe, is 24, Madison,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:48</time>
Matt, is 23, and Albert, Al, is 20.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:52</time>
So five brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:53</time>
Now, in between these brothers is a sister Genevieve.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:16:56</time>
She's born in 1917, so uh, she has a boyfriend named Bill Ball who dies

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:01</time>
on the Arizona, and that prompts all of her brothers to avenge him.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:05</time>
Okay, so, so her boyfriend died in the Pearl Harbor attack.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:09</time>
Yes.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:09</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:10</time>
And so they all wanna join up.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:11</time>
Now, two of the brothers, George, the two oldest ones, George and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:14</time>
Frank, had already been in the Navy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:17</time>
They were discharged in 1941, early in 1941, uh, before war, and so it was

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:22</time>
easier for them to just re-up, basically.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:25</time>
But they brought their three younger brothers with them.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:28</time>
Only one of the brothers was married.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:30</time>
Al was married, uh, and had a wife and a child named Jimmy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:34</time>
And so when you hear of grandchildren of the Sullivan brothers, it's

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:39</time>
Al's descendants because none of the other brothers were married.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:43</time>
Two of them were engaged, but no one had married or had children.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:46</time>
And so they all join up, and their whole premise was they wanted to serve together.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:52</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:52</time>
And at first the Navy was very reluctant for that because they had

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:17:56</time>
a stipulation where, um, they, they didn't want siblings to serve together.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:01</time>
It was not, but it wasn't strictly enforced.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:03</time>
It was just kinda like, we prefer they don't.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:06</time>
But it, it, it came when they went onto the Juneau, there were other

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:10</time>
sets of brothers on the Juneau.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:12</time>
Yeah, so, so they, so they got their way.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:14</time>
They got their way.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:14</time>
And it, it, you know, there were sets of brothers on the Arizona too, so it wasn't

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:19</time>
like this was a strictly enforced policy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:22</time>
So it was easier for them to go, "Okay, we- you can all serve together on

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:25</time>
the Juneau." So, uh, they enlist on January 3rd, 1942, so again, right after

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:30</time>
Pearl Harbor, right after Christmas.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:33</time>
And, uh, they are all sent to the Juneau.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:36</time>
It pa- and it participates in the Guadalcanal campaign,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:39</time>
begins in August of 1942.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:40</time>
We- ear- early in the morning of November 13th, um, during the Battle

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:44</time>
of Guadalcanal, the Juneau will exchange fire with Japanese destroyers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:48</time>
It's hit by a destroyer, and then it's actually sunk by a torpedo

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:53</time>
and what happens is all five of the brothers will perish.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:18:57</time>
Now, they don't all perish that same day.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:00</time>
So the re- the survivors report that Frank, Joe, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:02</time>
Matt are all killed instantly.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:04</time>
Al, the one with the son and the wife, he's drowns the next day.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:08</time>
And George, the oldest, survives for four or five days, but he starts to suffer

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:13</time>
from delirium and hypothermia, and he is just grieving his four brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:19</time>
Uh, he climbs off the side of the lifeboat, of the raft.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:22</time>
He waves goodbye, and he's never seen or heard from again.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:24</time>
Oh, wow.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:25</time>
So all five of them went down with the Juneau, and so that's why the poster,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:31</time>
the five Sullivan brothers missing in action in the Solomons, is what it

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:34</time>
would say, and it has the five stars.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:37</time>
And if you know anything about the stars on a flag, they would be blue

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:42</time>
on a flag with a white background and a red stripe around it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:46</time>
If you're lost during war, those stars turn to gold, and that's when you hear

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:51</time>
gold star widow or the Sullivan brothers' mother became a gold star mother.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:19:57</time>
And so the poster comes out after that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:00</time>
The Sullivan brothers' parents go on, uh, war bond drives and things like that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:06</time>
When they actually christen the first Sullivan ship, it will be their mother who

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:11</time>
christens it with the champagne bottle.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:13</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:14</time>
Their sister, in response to this, will join the Waves, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:17</time>
she will serve out the rest of the time in the military as the Wave.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:20</time>
She will survive.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:21</time>
So they have, they have their one daughter, and of course, they have

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:25</time>
their grandson in Jimmy, and then Jimmy will go on to have other children.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:30</time>
But this Turns into an act, and you've seen Saving Private Ryan, and you've

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:36</time>
seen what kind of happens when you hear a lot of siblings from one family have,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:41</time>
uh, paid the ultimate price for freedom.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:43</time>
They try to make sure a mother doesn't lose all their children, and it's called

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:47</time>
the Sole Survivor Policy now in the Navy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:50</time>
Uh, and it, actually every service has a variation of it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:54</time>
Yep.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:54</time>
And it has been enacted.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:56</time>
It has been enacted a couple times.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:20:58</time>
I was looking at, uh, the Niland brothers is kind of who Saving

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:02</time>
Private Ryan is based off of, and if you've seen our video to Normandy,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:05</time>
we see two of the Niland brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:07</time>
Same thing happened in Afghanistan.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:09</time>
A Navy Seal, there were three brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:10</time>
A Navy Seal was killed, and then a special armed forces combat medic

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:15</time>
was killed in Afghanistan, and they found his, their brother, who was

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:19</time>
a, a Marine, and sent him home.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:21</time>
So this happens today.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:23</time>
They never want a mother or a family to have lost all of their children- Yep

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:30</time>
in conflict.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:32</time>
And so it, it's a, it's an, uh, it's a regulation, the Sole Survivor Policy.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:36</time>
If you know you're serving with your family members, if something

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:39</time>
like that were to happen, you're, you're immediately discharged

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:43</time>
from the military and sent back.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:45</time>
Now, now one thing I would encourage folks to, to check out our video.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:48</time>
One, uh, the video on location, because they have a, they have a

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:51</time>
headstone for each of the brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:52</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:53</time>
Right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:53</time>
So there's five headstones in Arlington even though they,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:55</time>
they were never, never found.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:56</time>
But you said they were in the same section as other folks who their

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:21:59</time>
bodies were never found, like, um

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:02</time>
Glenn Miller.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:02</time>
Glenn Miller, right, in, in sim- in, in that similar section.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:06</time>
But also the movie, which came out in 1944, a lot of people would recognize

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:09</time>
some of the actors in the movie.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:11</time>
And so it was actually kinda neat as I, as I pulled up the movie.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:14</time>
You can find it on YouTube, and I think it's free.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:15</time>
Yeah, The

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:16</time>
Fighting

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:16</time>
Sullivans.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:16</time>
Um, The Fighting Sullivans.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:17</time>
So if you go onto YouTube and you look up The Fighting Sullivans,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:20</time>
they spend the majority of the movie focusing on their lives, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:23</time>
Kind of as kids, and then, a- as they're growing up, and

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:27</time>
then as they go off to the war.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:28</time>
But you'll recognize the Sullivans' father, he was in the S- the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:32</time>
Sullivans' father was- Gone With the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:33</time>
Wind

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:34</time>
well, the Sullivans' father was, uh, wasn't he the uncle

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:38</time>
from It's a Wonderful Life?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:39</time>
Yeah, he's also in Gone With the Wind.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:40</time>
Gone With the Wind.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:41</time>
He plays her father.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:41</time>
Um, but Ward Bond plays a Navy officer when- Also

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:45</time>
in It's a Wonderful Life.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:46</time>
Also in I- It's a Wonderful Life.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:48</time>
So you'll recognize some of the actors i- in the movie, uh, The Fighting Sullivans.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
Mm-hmm.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
So it's kinda fun to go see.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:52</time>
That's black and white.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:54</time>
Yes, and it's, again, these movies came out relatively, the poster

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:58</time>
comes out relatively quickly.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:22:59</time>
The movie comes out relatively quickly because this is all a part

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:02</time>
of the war fighting effort to re- People didn't die in vain, right?

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:07</time>
They're answering the call of freedom.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:09</time>
They're answering the call of what happened to Pearl Harbor.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:11</time>
It was nominated for a now discontinued Academy Award for Best Story.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:15</time>
Oh, I didn't know

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:15</time>
that.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:15</time>
I guess they used to give out for Best Story.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:17</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:17</time>
And because it's the story of the Sullivan brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:20</time>
But it's really great to see the five brothers, and it kinda

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:22</time>
gives them a good depiction-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:24</time>
Yeah

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:25</time>
of their lives.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:25</time>
And like I said, I have the poster, and I think of the Sullivan brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:29</time>
The f- the shipwreck was found in 2007, but again, all the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:33</time>
brothers went down with the ship.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:35</time>
They treat it as a graveyard, so they don't go down there

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:37</time>
and excavate anything from it.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:39</time>
But, uh, but they have found that shipwreck.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:42</time>
Yeah.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:42</time>
And i- and if you're in Arlington, right, and, and you're kinda doing, you're l-

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:47</time>
using the Arlington National Cemetery app, which that's a great app, uh, if

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:50</time>
you wanna look up graves, you can look these, look these up relatively easily.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:54</time>
Yeah, and they have that whole memorial section.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:56</time>
The gravestones are closer together, 'cause as you can imagine, they

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:23:58</time>
don't really bury anybody there.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:00</time>
But they're just in memory, so you can visit someone like Glenn

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:03</time>
Miller, who was also lost at sea, and the Sullivan brothers.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:05</time>
It's just a place you can go and leave something and remember them

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:09</time>
and, uh, and tell their story.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:14</time>
As we walk back down the hill from the markers of the Doolittle and the Sullivan

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:18</time>
families, the silence of Arlington feels heavier, but also more profound.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:24</time>
We've stood at the grave of a man who looked at an impossible mission and said,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:29</time>
"We can do this." And we've honored the five brothers who looked at a world in

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:34</time>
crisis and said, "We must go together."

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:38</time>
The Doolittle Raid proved that courage could change the course of a

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:41</time>
war, but the story of the Sullivans reminds us of the devastating cost

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
that often comes with that courage.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:48</time>
From the skies over Tokyo to the depths of the Pacific, these men represent the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:52</time>
absolute best of what it means to serve.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:24:57</time>
Their stories aren't just etched in stone there in Arlington, they are woven into

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:01</time>
the very fabric of our national identity.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:03</time>
Whether you are visiting the Doolittle grave to find inspiration for your own

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:07</time>
impossible tasks, or paying respects to the Sullivans to remember the

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:11</time>
weight of family and sacrifice, these are stops that stay with you long

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:15</time>
after you leave the cemetery gates.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:18</time>
We'll talk to you next time.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:19</time>
Thank you.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:20</time>
Okay.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:21</time>
This has been a Walk With History production.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:23</time>
Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Bennie.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:27</time>
Episode researched by Jennifer Bennie.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:29</time>
Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:33</time>
Talk With History is supported by our community at thehistoryroadtrip.com.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:37</time>
Our eternal thanks go out to our lifetime members to help keep us going.

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:42</time>
Make sure you hit that follow button in that podcast player,

<cite>Speaker:</cite>
<time>00:25:44</time>
and we'll talk to you next time.

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