North & South (1985) Part 1: Civil War Miniseries Review | Addressing Gettysburg - Talk With History

<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:01:41</time>
I am pleasantly surprised that we actually found the time this weekend to watch them. We filmed, I was telling Matt, we kind of came out the gates a little bit. A little bit hotter after the new year than I was expecting.

So for our audience, thank you for joining us again. We're going to talk with Matt from addressing Gettysburg about the north. And. So we are super excited to do this.

We had previously reviewed the Horse Soldiers together because we're John Wayne fans and Civil War and all that fun stuff and that belt video decks, he did pretty well.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:02:25</time>
Yeah. And so it was while we were filming Horse Soldiers, they went. There was like a military academy that these kids came from to fight them.

And that was used for West Point in North and the south. And so had brought it up filming that podcast.

And then we're like, we need to review north because for Matt and I it brought back memories of childhood. That was. God.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:02:50</time>
This is fresh eyes on north and the south right here.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:02:54</time>
So that's what I'm interested in and very interested to know what your take on it is. Being that you're the fresh eyes, I was pleasantly surprised. Okay. All right. Interesting.

Because I was, I was watching it and like Jen said, it reminds us of our childhood. So I had a lot of warm feelings and also like sad feelings. And I'll get into that as we go.

But like I remember watching it and going, I can't imagine someone new to this today enjoying this. It's a soap opera, first of all. It's a 12 hour soap opera.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:03:34</time>
Number one percent.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:03:36</time>
Number two, it is melodrama to the hilt. From the opening chord of the, the main theme in the beginning, it is, it just is just schlocky melodrama all the way. But I don't know why I love it.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:03:55</time>
Well, and, and I'll be honest, and, and Jen commented this a couple times as we were watching the first couple episodes that, you know, Patrick Swayze. My first question was like, was he big at the time? And so I, and so I, I don't think he was.

But Jen said that technically Red dawn had like just come out, but he may have bit like them. You know how those things go. Like you film them years before and they finally come out. So it may be kind of one of those kinds of situations. But.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:04:20</time>
But Red Don didn't make him a star either. Like, Red Don was kind of cultish too.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:04:25</time>
Yeah, that's more of a cult classic. Right. This was in everybody's living room.

It was a major television event and that was a thing we don't have anymore because nobody watches television. But, like, there were three networks still. You know, you had cable. It existed, but not everybody had it.

And cable, you know, hbo, I don't believe was really producing their own shows today in 1985. And so, like, if you still wanted.

I hesitate to use the word quality television, but if you still wanted a television event, it was on abc, NBC, or cbs. Fox wasn't even around yet. Well, that's all we have is three.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:05:14</time>
And for our watchers, too. So. So spoiler alert. Like I said earlier, like, I was pleasantly surprised. I actually kind of enjoyed how they set it up and the setting.

And part of it is we. I. My expectations were super low, so you guys helped me set my expectations pretty low, you know, as far as telling me how cheesy it was. So that.

That may have helped, but all the. I remember watching the opening credits, and I just was like, oh, my gosh, look at all of these names that we know.

Some of them huge at the time and some of them still huge now. You know, it's a young Forest Whitaker playing a minor role in all this stuff. Elizabeth Taylor, Gene Kelly, just all these big names.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:05:57</time>
You had Jimmy Stewart and you had Robert Mitchum.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:06:01</time>
Robert Mitchum.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:06:03</time>
I mean, yeah. And other people who, like, had their moment in the sun for a while, like, Lee Horsley is in it. He's in it later. He's. He's way down the road.

And I remember him. He was on a show. I want to say it was an ABC show or maybe. Oh, cbs.

It was a CBS show, but it was, like, after or before a show called the Young Riders on abc. And it was called Paradise. It was a western called Paradise. And Lee Horsley was the. The dad.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:06:35</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:06:35</time>
And I remember when. When I was. The first time I watched it, my mom's like, oh, Lee Horsley. You know, like, she knew his name, but I had no idea who these people were.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:06:45</time>
You know, Patrick Swayze was the one who really just made it from this. I would say from all the actors that you're gonna see.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:06:54</time>
He was the.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:06:54</time>
One who went all the way. So between. So. But for. For Matt and I let. That's. North and the south is a miniseries from 1985. It is the. What did I say?

The seventh largest miniseries of all time.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:07:06</time>
Yeah. Seventh highest rated miniseries of all time still.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:07:09</time>
Yep. And so this is when TV shows are capitalizing.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:07:13</time>
Yeah, it's north and South.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:07:15</time>
Oh, north and South. I know.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:07:17</time>
The north and the south is something different. North and South British thing. I. I don't even think it's an American.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:07:23</time>
They did. British did make this too. They did. Oh, you're kidding. No, they did. They made their own version of this.

I know that this book came out in 1982 and like the sequel in 84. And then they capitalized on it rather quickly. And then I know the British made their version in the UK as well. I bet they. But it's all.

It's all American. But they made it in the uk.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:07:46</time>
How interesting.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:07:47</time>
But just so people know, like, miniseries were a big deal. Roots 77. Right. Like, miniseries were huge. People went home to watch these. There were really no vcrs, were just kind of coming into their own.

So you came home to watch these. Like you were ready to watch these every night. And I know for you and I. Matt, like my grandma loved this. This was her thing. Right.

And so it brings back memories of sitting in my grandma's house and, and watching this with her and her. Like, this is so great. And oh my gosh. And I can't believe this. The scenes and the actors. And I was more like, they look like my Barbie dolls.

Like that's kind of what I thought. I was like, these girls look like my Barbie dolls. Like, I didn't really have much thought more than that. But now that I watch it, it's so cheesy.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:08:33</time>
Yeah, so.

So for folks, for folks who haven't seen it, maybe you've clicked on this thumbnail just because you recognize Jen's face, you recognize Matt, or you're just curious. Set in 1842 and is basically exactly what it sounds set. Set pre Civil War.

All of a sudden you introduced to Patrick Swayze, who I think he's riding up on a horse with full on 80s hair and all the stuff. It was amazing.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:08:59</time>
Go ahead. Because I have a note about that. Go ahead.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:09:02</time>
So I actually my, my very first note. One of my, one of my first notes was Patrick Swayze. Almost looks like he. Like the first thought in my head was he.

It looks like he still has a little bit of baby fat like on him. Like he just looks so young, you know, he's not like the super cut chiseled Patrick Swayze that we all know now. I think he kind of get.

Goes into that, but set in 1842. Patrick Swayze's this kind of rich southerner. He's getting ready to head off to West Point.

His father and mother and family that are kind of seeing him off. You get the feeling that he's kind of got A mind for kind of new and fresh things. But lives on a plantation in South Carolina.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:09:42</time>
South Carolina. His name is Ori Main.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:09:44</time>
Ori Maine. So he heads off to West Point. He's going up to kind of learn to be a soldier. He says he doesn't want to be a soldier. He wants to farm.

But he wants to learn. He wants to get that experience. Meets his friend Hazard. Is it Robert?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:09:57</time>
Before that, though, he meets a lady.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:09:59</time>
He does meet the lady. And so that is one of the next notes that I have. As he's going to the train station, there's a.

He comes upon a carriage that has overturned because the horse got spooked. Classic. And you come into. They. There's this overturned carriage and these two ladies asking for help. It's. It's a lady and her maid.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:10:20</time>
Yeah, I would say.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:10:21</time>
Yeah, Her.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:10:21</time>
Her companion, her slave, her enslaved companion.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:10:25</time>
But there's a snake in there, and Patrick Spy has to get the snake away from these two women. And, like, she. Like, her chest is popping out of this dress.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:10:34</time>
Oh, it was just.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:10:37</time>
It was. I was like, okay, I can roll with this. Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:10:42</time>
Total 1980s.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:10:44</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:10:44</time>
Like that stuff with the heaving bosoms, you know, And I'm sorry, they're still in the dress after that tumble. The carriage.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:10:52</time>
Her hat's still fine. Like, nothing is up over her head, like.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:11:00</time>
And like. Okay, let's. If we can go back real quick, because we breezed over a lot of stuff here that's like. Yeah, really good.

Okay, first of all, like I said before, the music in the beginning, very melodramatic. Typical 80s, right? But beautiful melody. I watched an interview before this. It was like. It was.

It was a making of north and south and had the composer. I forget his name, but they had him on. And he was talking about how he had three weeks to air and he had to write the whole score.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:11:33</time>
Wow.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:11:33</time>
Oh, my God.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:11:34</time>
Which is now for 12 hours now. You know the way these things work.

You have a theme, and then you get a couple of different songs, and each person kind of has their own theme or whatever, and you recycle them throughout, and you do different versions of them. And so it's not like you're writing 5,000 songs, right? Just 5,000 versions of four songs.

But, like, he played the melody on the piano just as he wrote it, and I was like, okay, that is a beautiful melody. And it made me sad because it's. It's beautiful. It's. It's lofty, it's soaring.

It's all this stuff but there's this one chord change and the one note in the melody that hits on the chord change and musicians understand what I'm talking about.

It just hits you right up the spine and, and that's always, it's always at that chord where I get sad and remember little me laying on the floor in front of the TV at my grandmother's house and everything is great. Like, I have a care in the world.

My grandparents, they had a nice house and they, they took care of us and we always had fun with them and we were waiting for mom to come pick us up and north and south was on.

And I just, you know, the, the whole civil wariness of it all, like, I just, I loved it and, and it always makes me sad thinking about that, because that innocence that you have as a kid, you know, if you're lucky enough to be able to be an innocent kid. And I was. Yeah, that goes away once you get out into the world, you know, and you realize how.

What a shit show the world is, you know, and there certainly are messages in north and south, which I, you know, I'm confused. I'm not confused about, but I'm, I took me a while to try to figure out where John Jakes is on everything. Is he a lost causer?
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:13:32</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:13:32</time>
And then.

But as I watch it more, I realize, no, like, I think he's actually doing a good job at representing not only the two sides, but the nuance of the arguments of the two sides.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:13:47</time>
So that, that, that piece I really appreciated as we go through episode one and episode two, right, because they start showing the comparisons between what the northern, you know, factory workers, their living conditions, which are arguably, you know, in the show, laborers, was, was worse than, you know, according to Ori Main, worse than his, the slaves that he owned. Conditions now. So they were kind of that push pull there of like.

Oh, yeah, you say, you know, they have the option to, to leave whenever they want, you know, but I think he says, like, an empty belly is a pretty big motivator to stay.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:14:23</time>
But then you have Ori wrestling with things that are actually happening on his plantation that he's not aware of because he can live blissfully. Yeah. Because he's, he's not the overseer.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:14:34</time>
Right. So I think you, I think you nailed it right there. That they did, at least for these two first two episodes, because I haven't seen the rest yet.

They, I think they did, they did a pretty good job of kind of walking that tightrope and giving each side's perspective and that's part of the reason that I actually enjoyed it a little bit too was when I was. As I was watching, I thought it was going to be very heavy handed one way or the other. Whatever it was. And it wasn't, it was, it was pretty balanced.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:15:04</time>
And originally to me are representing the middle of the road person.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:15:10</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:15:10</time>
In regions their sisters represent the extremists of their. So Virgilia played by Kirstie Alley, she's the extremist abolitionist. And could they have gotten a better crazy looking woman than Kirsty Alley?

I mean she did that fantastically. And then I forget her name. I just saw it and I forget her name. But the woman who plays his sister Brett, the Ori sister Brett.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:15:40</time>
Yeah. Is that the blonde girl?
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:15:42</time>
No, no, that's dark hair girl. The, the troublemaker.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:15:46</time>
Egg on the. Her sister.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:15:48</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:15:48</time>
In the very beginning.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:15:51</time>
Okay, so let's talk about. Okay. But anyways, we don't see her as an adult yet in episode one. Okay. So wait until we get to her as an adult. But she is, she's wicked.

She's not even really. She would be the counterpart to Virgilia only in that she causes stress for her family. I just, I just thought that they did that.

Well, like they both have an extremist in their family, but they're both middle of the road and, and it's a story about their friendship.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:16:21</time>
You know, and that's what I love about it. Yeah. It's a blossoming friendship. And these men, they, they, they clearly love each other and there's.

And this is the thing, Scott, you can probably back me up on this. And I'm sure women are the same way. But I'm not a woman so I can't speak to that.

But guys, when we have a best friend, we have a best friend, like, you know what I mean? Like we're like, we will do whatever we can to help him. Even when it makes us look stupid or even when it maybe gets us in some kind of trouble.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:16:56</time>
Oh yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:16:57</time>
You know, and, and it, there's, there's nothing like that to me in the world. Even in my romantic relationships. It's not the same as my best friend.

Even though they're a female best friend, it's a different type of best friendship because they always tend to go at some point. But my best friend has been around for 30 years, you know, so. And the, so the emot between George and Ori, they have this huge as.

As we learn eventually there's going to be like this huge difference between them when the war comes. But it's already brewing in the first episode when they meet. And we also see. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:17:45</time>
Oh, I. I just love how they're setting up this idea of brother versus brother, of people who are fighting each other, who were friends with each other. Right. Because it's 20 years before the Civil war. And as you. You guys are alluding to best friends. I have a best friend, too.

But most time, you build that friendship going through a shared hardship together. Like you've grown up together or you've overcome something together. And so these two men are overcoming West Point together.

Neither of them would have made it without the other. And because of that, they've. They've forged something very strong between the.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:18:21</time>
Two of them in Mexico.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:18:24</time>
Yes. And it gets even stronger in Mexico.

And so what we're going to see is they're setting the story up so well that these two men are going to have a huge conflict of difference here soon.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:18:36</time>
Right.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:18:36</time>
And what happens? And with all the heaving breasts in between. Right.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:18:42</time>
I'm not gonna lie. That doesn't. That doesn't hurt my opinion of the show.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:18:48</time>
Let the carriage ride and. Okay. Or the carriage accident. Yeah. Classic. 80s classic. Like Hollywood. Anything with horses. You know, you got the runaway carriage.

And then of course, the team breaks loose from the wagon. The wagon goes tumbling down a little embankment. And Ori is coming the other way. And he rides up and helps.

And immediately he and Madeline, played by Julie. No, what's her name? Leslie. Ann. Down.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:19:19</time>
Leslie and down.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:19:21</time>
And her heaving breasts, they are smitten with each other. Not her breasts, but he.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:19:27</time>
And Toss up in that moment. Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:19:32</time>
With each other. And. And I mean, only in. Only in movies does it work this way. Right. Like, you know, they. They smitten with each other. And he gives her.

He puts, you know, puts her up on the horse to give her a ride to where she needs to go. And meanwhile leaves the slave with the coachman, who. He goes flying off the front of the coach. Right.

And then we go to this stuff inside with the snake and everything. And I'm like, oh, where's this guy? I'm not. I totally forgot about the coachman.

And then they ride off right past the coachman who's still on the ground kind of like all day, help with this guy.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:20:10</time>
And she's sitting side saddle. And so we talked about that too. Like, so Ori's leaving for West Point with just him on a horse. Like, I would like station. Right.

So he's going to the station. But he's not. He has a trunk. Eventually, I guess that went ahead. Maybe that went ahead on a. A wagon.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:20:28</time>
I would imagine we were trying to.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:20:30</time>
Put that story together. Like, why is he alone on a horse and he's found her and, you.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
Know, it's always like same in a Western when, you know, a guy's just on his horse and he's got a bed roll on the back, but when he sets up camp, he's got one of those, like, tripod kettles on the fire. It's like, where did that come from? Yeah, yeah, I. There. I was wondering that myself. And then I was also wondering what happens with the horse.

Like, why wouldn't you have somebody go with him?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:20:58</time>
Yeah, that's why I told him. I said, if he's. If he's an enslaver, which he is, he would be going with a. With a person. Right. Lee always traveled with a person. Right.

You would have a per. And they would probably bring the horses back. You'd ride together and they'd bring the horses back to the plantation.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:21:13</time>
Well, in the book, See, I watched behind the scenes thing, and now I know some stuff. In the book, he takes his slave.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:21:23</time>
To West Point, See, and that happened a lot.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:21:26</time>
Actually did happen a lot. But they. They didn't put it in the movie. And I forget the reason why. But that was one of the regrets that the producer said he has.

He goes, I wish I had, because I think he didn't want to be controversial. And so he. He left it out. And he goes, but in hindsight, I wish I had left it in because it just would have lent to. Lent itself to the.

The whole division anyway, because when he gets to West Point and they go into their barracks, there's what's his name, Ned Fisk y from Ohio, who doesn't.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:22:00</time>
Like him because he's from the south and he knows he's an enslaver.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:22:04</time>
And. And because his daddy is a tobacco farmer. Yes. Or anybody. Because the slavers make it so that tobacco is really cheap because of the labor they have.

That was another point where it's like, okay, here's another argument against slavery. It's not just humanitarian. It's also economic. It's hurting small farmers in the north and anywhere else in the country. Right.

Because you can't compete with free labor. So. And. And I. I. So I thought it was for. For a cheesy soap opera. And, and really, it's a romance. It's romance novel. Right.

Like, that's what it's based on. Right. But for all that, like John Jakes said, he really had to do a lot of research because otherwise you can't write anything believable. Right.

If you don't know what you're talking about. About. And, and so I, I, I, I had it kind of like, you know what? Like, this is actually pretty, Pretty good.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:23:05</time>
Yeah. And, and one of the things that I really liked, and I'm, I'm glad you kind of brought up to West Point. We can move on to that.

Was I had never known that there was this, like, amazing class of West Point cadets and. Yeah. So this class of 46. And so just the, the amount of just common, like, almost everybody knows these names. Right. So Grant was there.

McClellan, Pickett. Who else?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:23:35</time>
Stonewall Jackson.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:23:36</time>
Stonewall Jackson. I think you said Lee came either before or after. Just before. Just after.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:23:42</time>
Yeah. Lee was 18 29.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:23:46</time>
Okay.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:23:46</time>
France is 1943.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:23:49</time>
At some point, he was commandant.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:23:51</time>
Yeah, Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:23:52</time>
I don't think it was then, though.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:23:54</time>
But it, it's, it's that class. They're part of this class.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:23:58</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:23:59</time>
Which they are. They are. This 1846 class.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:24:01</time>
That's. Yeah. They started introducing themselves to all of their classmates, like, the first day or the first, like when they, when they do the drill. Right.

He's like, making them hold the buckets out to the side, which would be incredibly difficult. And then. Yeah. Grant, you know, essentially kind of saves him from the, the a hole. Upperclassmen bent.

And then all their classmates come over and start introducing themselves and they start listing off these names. And I was like, wait a second. I turned to Jen. I was like, is this legit?

Like, are these, were these people actually at West Point this time and this whole crew.

So that I thought was really cool because one thing that I've always noticed of kind of popular, like, kind of historical type books or, or movies is they'll have a sprinkling of something that everybody knows about. Right. In the Da Vinci Code. Right. A lot of people are familiar with a couple of the things, and then the author kind of crafted the rest of the story.

Same thing for, for war movies. So that was neat because I was like, everybody could latch onto those names. Oh, I recognize that name. Oh, I recognize that name.

So that I thought was really cool.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:25:09</time>
But I wonder, though, so, okay.

Because I wonder for somebody else who's the fresh eyes to this, if they saw that and they didn't know that it was taking place in 1846 because they didn't read the title or, you know, they didn't know that these guys were all part of the class of 46. Would they think that was like Hollywood just trying to throw in some recognizable names?
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:25:31</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:25:32</time>
You know what I mean?
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:25:33</time>
I think most folks probably would think that if I was just watching this on my own for whatever reason. Right. I was traveling for work and had nothing else to watch. You know, this is probably something I'd.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:25:43</time>
Be like, okay, I would think that, too. But then you would think they would throw in Lee's name if they were doing that. Really. Right, right. But they didn't. Yeah, right.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:25:53</time>
Because that's not what they were doing. Like, he. That was. That was his.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:25:56</time>
It was legitimate. Now they are filming this at Jefferson Military College outside of Natchez. Natchez, like, matches. I always try to remind people how to say it.

So that is the comp. That's the connection to horse soldiers. And they picked that location. A lot of this is filmed around Natchez. They use. Stanton hall is also a Natchez.

And. And then right close there, St. Francisville, Louisiana. I have a video from that. That's where the Myrtles is.

That haunted plantation is in St. Francisville. That's where the Resolute Plantation is. That's where the bad guy, when he marries her. That's his plantation. So that's insane.

So they're filming around the same areas there, but Mont Royale, his plan. Patrick SW's plantation is actually in Charleston, South Carolina.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:26:46</time>
Okay.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:26:47</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:26:48</time>
Interesting, because they're supposed to be neighbors, but they're filmed in, like, a thousand miles away from each other.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:26:54</time>
The very beautiful locations that still look the same.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:26:56</time>
Oh, yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:26:57</time>
And they picked that place for West Point because those buildings haven't really been updated. And that's what West Point would have looked like in 1846. It much more like that than what it looks like today.

So that's why they picked that location to film at.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:27:15</time>
And the interesting thing is that scene when Ori gets pneumonia. Well, the whole Benny Havens scene when they go to the tavern. And Ben. We haven't talked about Ben yet, but.

So that whole thing in the snow and everything like that, that is. What is it? Some kind of soap that they use for fake snow. And I was watching an interview with. Is it James Reed, the guy who plays George Hazard?

And he said it was like. Actually, Patrick Swayze said this. They both said it.

That it was like 100 degrees with, you know, like 9,000% humidity, and that fake snow was melting on their coats. It wasn't staying on because it was so hot. It was melting.

And you know when he's out there, when Patrick Swayze is out there on guard duty, supposedly with pneumonia, and he looks all sweaty and everything, but it worked. He had pneumonia, you know.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:28:15</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:28:16</time>
So it's supposed to look like those winters in. On the Hudson Valley up there in upstate New York, which do look like blizzards. So it's supposed to look like that.

But you're filming it in the Deep south where it's hot as heck.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:28:30</time>
Yeah. When. When they're on the train, when they, you know, they meet because George helps Ori in a fight.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:28:38</time>
Y.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:28:38</time>
When he arrives in New York, I.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:28:40</time>
Guess gangs of New York are. They accost him. Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:28:44</time>
And so then they make their way back up. You know, not back, but on their way up to West Point together. George helps him out and they're on the train, they're talking and they make a bet.

Takes out a $10 bill. It rips it in half, gives Ori half of it, and he says, I bet you you're going to graduate. And I'm. We're going to make sure that you do.

And like, that's a. Don't even know you. Right. But that's a sign of a person who's offering you true friendship. There's Right.

And sure enough, as you pointed out, they get through West Point together and then they got the whole. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. But somehow you had it in your pants, but you almost forgot.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:29:21</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:29:21</time>
Four years later and. But that's important, though, the $10 in half. We're gonna. We're gonna see this again. So it's important that we note this and remember it.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:29:32</time>
I'll remember that.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:29:33</time>
Yes. Don't forget it.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:29:35</time>
I also wanted to bring up, too, there was something over the table in the plantations called a shoo fly. Yeah, that. A big piece of wood that comes down over those plantation tables and goes back and forth.

If you visit any plantation museum house today, they usually have those there and they'll explain what those are. And if you know anything about the south and flies and tables, that's what that was.

That is what that's meant to do is keep flies away from the dinner table and an enslaved person would be pulling it. More than likely, though, they would hide that person in a closet so you wouldn't have to see them.

So it was interesting that they were out, but that was just an interesting. I like how north and the south is trying to adhere to some actual accurate history here.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:30:19</time>
They did. And there was a couple points too. Right. So I was A Naval Academy guy.

So I hate West Point just because there are rivals and the uniforms that these guys are wearing, they're the same uniforms that West Point cadets wear today. You know, their freshman year. You know, cadets are called plebes. Just like at the Naval Academy, I was booked plebe for a year.

You know, so all that stuff they mentioned the Nat Turner rebellion.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:30:45</time>
Yeah, they do.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:30:45</time>
After. Yes, they, they bring that up and that's actually like we've been to the spot where the Nat Turner rebellion happened and we made a video from there.

It's smack in the middle of nowhere now. But I even, I noticed this as the non history guy that they.

It seemed to me now it's only because I know a little bit because of what we do with our content creation, but I noticed it seemed like they were at least trying to kind of keep some of that historical accuracy in there and mentioning historic things that were going on at the time.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:31:17</time>
Yeah, yeah, I wrote that in my notes that they mentioned Nat Turner because again, that is another angle of the pro slavery, pro Southern whatever argument at the time is like, you know, well, hey, look what happened with Nat Turner, that can happen to any one of us. Kill him in your sleep. You know, I mean, we did a show that hasn't come out yet though about John Brown's raid.

And you know, Nat Turner came up in that.

It was a discussion at a tavern and Nat Turner came up in that and someone had made the point that, you know, John Brown's raid made a lot of Southerners say, see, see what's going on? You see what? They're coming for us. They're coming for us. And would point to Nat Turner because that never died.

You know, that still was a thing in their minds and a fear. And John Brown was trying to arm slaves.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:32:21</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:32:21</time>
And but the thing is, of course, they're misrepresenting John Brown by saying that he's trying to arm slaves for rebellion. He's trying to arm slaves to defend themselves and to get them the hell out of the South. But, you know, that's not going to come out.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:32:37</time>
Yeah, I like that. They, well, they keep it. They, they talk about John Tyler as the vice president. Right. And in 1945 or 18.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:32:47</time>
Sorry, 18.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:32:48</time>
1841. And so I like leading up to the, the Mexican American War, they kind of talk about Texas. Right. They're leading.

They're really are talking about the historic things that are happening at the time. So I really do appreciate. He did his research. Right. He did his research in the background of this romantic story.

Romantic story between men who are best friends. Romantic story between men. Men and women, but also like a real story of America, too. So I. I appreciate that.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:33:18</time>
Yeah. The Texas thing was interesting because Kirstie Alley was against that. The annexation of Texas, of course. Right.

Because she's against everything, but. But she was against it for reasons of expansion of slavery. She didn't want slavery to expand.

So, like, the characters are not caricatures of what they're representing. You know, like, there's actually some depth to them. And. And they're.

They're espousing, in her case, her beliefs or political beliefs, according to the way people would have done back then.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:33:53</time>
Yeah. And even Scott had said to me, were people really fighting about that then? And like, oh, yeah, Scott. I said, wait.

I said, this is what causes civil war. I said, because they go, what will these states be, these new states into the Union? What are they going to be?

And this is what's going to start the Civil War is like this conflict of labor. I said, it's. You know, we like to paint it as humanitarianism, but it really was a conflict of labor, and that's what was getting people so upset.

Now, Chrissy Alley plays this abolitionist, and what I love about her is she's. She makes sense to our values today. But at that time, she looks crazy.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:34:29</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:34:30</time>
Right. And even her family paints her out as, like, I'm sorry for our daughter. I'm sorry for our crazy daughter.

I'm sorry for our daughter who thinks that she can have a say and an opinion. Right.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:34:41</time>
How many families today have that. That kid in the family? Sure. They get really into something.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:34:48</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:34:49</time>
And they believe it with every fiber of their being to the point where they're. They're intolerable at Thanksgiving.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:34:56</time>
Yeah. They think they know everything.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:34:58</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:34:59</time>
Nothing. That experience means nothing. You know, they. They see the truth. They know the truth, and they know how the real world works.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:35:09</time>
No, they don't. But they don't. And they do. You know, like. Like. And again, like Kirsty Alley, we agree with her.

She's actually fighting for something that is real, you know, free human beings. And. And as you'll see. But again, you know, George on the other end, the middle of the road guy, he's seeing things.

When he goes and visits Mont Royal down south, he's like. He even says, I'm starting to see what my sister is all worked up about her. I forget how.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:35:40</time>
He says, that's what I really appreciated, kind of them showing. And I Assume the author wrote this in the book, was that them visiting their families in each area. Right.

So Ori goes up to Philadelphia, he sees the factories and he sees all this. And he's talking about, yeah, I think the south could really use this and et cetera, et cetera.

And he consistently says, like, hey, some, you know, he's kind of talking about himself, hey, hey, some people think slavery is outdated. Right. So he's kind of alluding to the fact that like, hey, if I could do this, then we wouldn't have to have that.

And then when George comes and visits.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:36:13</time>
Yeah. Because he's. Ori is a guy looking forward for the South. Right. He's looking to how can I make the, the future of the south better?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:36:25</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:36:26</time>
And this industrialization and mechanization, we need this down there.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:36:31</time>
Right.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:36:31</time>
But it's never going to fly down there because then what are you going to do with all the slaves?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:36:36</time>
Yes.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:36:37</time>
Right. And you know, I mean, I guess you would make them run the machine. I don't know.

But like it threatens, even if it doesn't, like there's, there's a fear of it being a threat to our way of life.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:36:50</time>
And that is what's so interesting about the south as well. And Patrick Swayze really adheres to that decorum.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:36:56</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:36:56</time>
You're in my father's house. You're a guest in my father's house. Right. Like you need to act this way. Like that's a very southern decorum kind of thing. And he's adhering to that.

And even though he's pushing back against his dad with the way the slaves are treated, in the end, Patrick Swayze is still the son of the owner, so he really can't have as much say. And so he, they're kind of showing you that. I also appreciated there's, they take you through a cotton.

Like they're, they're, they're putting cottons in the, the big bales. Right. And they walk through the area and you see bags of rice all over the place.

And that South Carolina was the biggest rice producing southern state. And so they have the rice there just to make sure, you know, it's not all cotton coming out of South Carolina. I was like, okay, way to go.

Good job, people.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:37:46</time>
Well, John Jakes was saying that, I guess this is in the book.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:37:50</time>
He.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:37:50</time>
They're rice farmers in the book.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:37:53</time>
Okay. But most people don't associate that with the South. They associate the cotton.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:37:59</time>
And I think that's why for tv they made a cotton.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:38:02</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:38:02</time>
And that little Bit of rice was kind of a nod to the book because he would say, says like, I was debating whether to make a cotton or rice, but rice outdates cotton in South Carolina. It's as. As a. As a crop. So. So he's like, I'm gonna go with that. To show that they're an old established family.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:38:26</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:38:27</time>
And I also. They're alluding to real, real trauma with the enslaved. Like the overseer is having his way with one of the women who is with another man. Right.

And how he has to. He has to allow that to happen because of the dynamic of what enslavement meant. As a kid, I never got that push right over my head.

I had no idea what was happening. And then when he gets branded on his face, I don't really know if I understood that either.

They don't show you maybe after the fact, but that, that is really harsh, harsh treatment. And they're not shying away from it.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:39:08</time>
They're showing you. I don't know how many years, you know, a few handful of years. I don't even think it was 10 years before Roots came out. That was a very successful 77.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:39:20</time>
So that's about eight years.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:39:22</time>
Okay, so what, what's the producer's name? Walper. I forget his first name. But yeah, so like. But still Roots was out there.

And Roots was, you know, the slaves view of what life was like in the South. And so I think you just. You kind of. If you didn't put something like that in there, people would be like, what are you trying to do?
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:39:45</time>
So, so one thing before we move on to the. When they went down to fight in Mexico and kind of moving on from there, do you know why? When they graduated, they were talking.

So Orey and George were. Were talking and Orey references. He says, hey, you know, I made it.

I may have been second from, you know, second from the last to graduate, but I made it. Do you know why they didn't make him the very last in his class?
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:40:12</time>
Because that was Pickett.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:40:13</time>
That was Pickett. Very good. I didn't know if you would know that. So that was one of the things I looked up about Pickett being there. They called him the goat.

I don't know if they still call it. At the. At the Naval Academy we had. We called him Anchorman. Right. The anchorman of the class is at the Naval Academy.

So maybe at the west, at West Point's a goat. But yeah, Pickett was the last one to graduate from his class.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:40:34</time>
Yeah. So already Maine was three of them.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:40:38</time>
Yeah. Or he's slightly smarter than Pickett.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:40:42</time>
Ever so slightly.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:40:44</time>
Oh, what are they trying to tell you about the guys in the South?
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:40:47</time>
Where did George graduate? Did they name that?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:40:50</time>
I don't know what they said.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:40:52</time>
I don't remember.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:40:53</time>
I remember. Yeah, but I do.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:40:55</time>
Like, he said he was in the top because they talked to him about, you know, either being, like, a civil engineer.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:40:59</time>
He was the top one third, remember, because he could have been a civil engineer.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:41:01</time>
He could have been a civil engineer. And they're like, oh, no, I decided not to do that. They're like, oh, you're gonna go artillery? Artillery. No, no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go infantry.

And so all the rest of the guys were like, oh, you're gonna be with us. So.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:41:12</time>
Because that was a big thing. That's why people went to West Point. They went to West Point for the civil engineering because.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:41:18</time>
Right.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:41:19</time>
With a lot of those bridges that we have today, the Suez Canal. The Panama Canal. Not Suez. Got the Panama Canal. That's all built by West Point graduates.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:41:27</time>
Army Corps of Engineers.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:41:28</time>
The Army Corps of Engineers. They have built all the levies so much on the Mississippi here, that's built by the Army Corps of Engineers.

So if you are in the top of your class at West Point, you become those engineers. And so much was done by those people. That's what they're trying to allude to, how smart he was. But.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:41:43</time>
Yeah, but George turns it down and he goes off and fights with his friends down in Mexico.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:41:48</time>
But I will say Patrick Swayze gives us one move. He gives us a spin move in his sword training.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:41:54</time>
That's right. When he's fighting with a sword, I.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:41:57</time>
Was like, oh, you get to see a little dancing skill there. Yes. So he is showing us.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:42:02</time>
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could definitely.

Throughout the whole thing and even later on in the war, you definitely get a sense of where Patrick Swayze is going with his career. Like, you got little glimpses of Dirty Dancing in there. You know, you got. You got a little bit of ghost in there.

You got all the things that we all grew to love about Patrick. So you got some roadhouse in there. Some of the spin kicks that he does. Like, you know, you got a little bit of everything in there that. Yeah.

And he probably. Well, obviously, he had no idea what he was going to be.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:42:37</time>
He had no idea. But the romance kind of continued on. Right.

So they were down in Mexico, and obviously, one of the big through lines for this for folks who haven't seen it. And if you haven't seen it. Congrats on making it to this point in the podcast. You should go watch it.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:42:53</time>
Most people probably seen it, but, yeah.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:42:54</time>
I imagine most folks watching this have seen this.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:42:56</time>
But watch it if you've already seen it.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:43:01</time>
I've watched episode one and two. I was pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed them.

I have not seen the rest yet, so I'll be watching those over the next week or two before the next time we record. But they're down in Mexico. And the through line for him is he's lost his love. Right. He is.

The woman he love got married off to someone else because her father was hiding his letters, and so they never communicated while he was at West Point. So Bent, you know, the, the antagonist at school, I don't think he was involved in that piece of it, but I finally got him kicked out, so.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:43:32</time>
But you mentioned Ben just now, and then we talked about the sword fighting and there was another illusion to Ben. But we really. We really have to introduce Ben because he is the villain throughout series. He's great. I watched you with him this afternoon.

I had nothing to do. So he, he. Elkana Bent. What a name. Yeah, right. He's got this really, like, crazy Southern accent.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:44:06</time>
Georgia.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:44:06</time>
Georgia.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:44:08</time>
He's a cadet corporal at. At West Point. And he. He just has it in for Ori and George from the moment they show up. And he picks on him every chance they get he gets. And he just.

Just doesn't like them and gives them a hard time about everything.

But, you know, somehow, through all these twists and turns that you'll just have to go and watch to find out, they get him kicked out of West Point and he goes blackmail Senator Edwards, played by Gene Kelly, Ohio.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:44:47</time>
I didn't even recognize him.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:44:48</time>
He didn't recognize him. I said, that's Gene Kelly right there.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:44:51</time>
He's old. I just saw it in his eyes. Hear it a little bit in his voice.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:44:54</time>
You could hear the voice a little bit.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:44:55</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:44:56</time>
So the, the thing that's fascinating about north and south to me is it has, you know, stars of the Day, Stars of Yesterday.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:45:08</time>
Yes.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:45:10</time>
And Stars of Tomorrow. Yes, of course, the Stars of Tomorrow. They couldn't have known at the time, but we do now, in hindsight.

But the Stars of Yesterday, you got Elizabeth Taylor, Gene Kelly, Robert Mitchum, Jimmy Stewart. There's others that I'm not remembering at the moment, but we'll see later on. You know, it's like I remember them as little kids, right?

Well, as I was a little kid, I remember them as the old Hollywood people. Not old Hollywood, but they were old Hollywood people.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:45:48</time>
Yep.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:45:49</time>
And I didn't realize they were once young men and women with, you know, careers and they were like hot stars at the time. I didn't get that stuff at, you know, 8 years old or whatever. I was. So, you know. But now to watch it. Because they're all dead.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:46:06</time>
Yes.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:46:07</time>
Not one of those classic people are alive. Patrick Swayze's dead. A lot of, A lot of the other people are dead.

And that's the thing about movies that to me is just fascinating, is like they're a time capsule. And that's the only way for us to know people that lived before us and died before we ever, you know.

Well, we're never going to meet them, but you know what I mean? And it's, it's, it's weird, but it's also really a cool thing because we get to see what these people were like when they acted.

I don't know, I, I just, I just think it's really cool that, you know, Jean Kelly, the dancer. I don't know. He was singing in the rain, right?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:46:47</time>
Singing in the rain.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:46:48</time>
Oh, yeah, he did.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:46:50</time>
I couldn't give American Perry Scott. I know you're a dancer and that's why you like Gene Kelly. But like, I am very clumsy.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:46:57</time>
It's more like the gymnast side, not the dancing side.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:47:00</time>
So to me, growing up, so my mom always forced us to watch musicals. So I knew Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly pretty early. And I always kind of admired Fred Astaire because he was kind of the classic dancer.

But Gene Kelly was much more gymnastic in what he did. He was much more athletic as far as kind of what he did. And that always stuck with me as a kid, especially as a young gymnast.

But yeah, I just, I thought that was so fun to see.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:47:27</time>
That's funny you say that because I'm a huge Dean Martin fan. Right. One year, many Christmases ago, my sister and brother in law got me a box set, like the best, the Dean Martin Show.

His director, Greg something or other would like introduce the clips and talk, you know, behind the scenes stuff. And he compared Dean and Frank Sinatra to Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:47:57</time>
Sure.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:47:58</time>
Frank, Fred Astaire. They're precise, they're right on the note and everything like that.

Dean and Gene Kelly, they're like, hey, you know, they're just, you know, that was the difference between them.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:48:13</time>
So Gene Kelly is playing the senator from Ohio who has an illegitimate son. Son, right. So not, not the Best role to play. But he's playing because he knows how big this miniseries is probably going to be.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:48:26</time>
Probably he needed the money.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:48:28</time>
And then he's getting his son back into the military.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:48:32</time>
Like his, you know, that's the point. Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:48:37</time>
His illegitimate son, like his illegitimate son is, is also blackmailing. Right. It's like, I'll, I'll tell the truth if you don't get me back in.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:48:47</time>
So he's like, okay, your illegitimate son and. Yeah, yeah. And I'm a bastard.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:48:54</time>
Yeah, he is.

And that's kind of what, that's the other piece that I liked about this story is because you kind of, you know, when he, when he gets kicked out of West Point, when Ben gets kicked out, you, you know, like, okay, we'll probably see this guy in the future because they, they lay that on pretty thick, but you don't know how.

And all of a sudden it cut to a scene, you know, a little while later after other stuff happens, and he's talking to this senator and then, then he talks about, hey, just give me commission and I'll, I'll leave you alone. You're like, oh, no, this is how he comes back into the story.

Yeah, he's going to end up as some officer that's higher ranking than these other two and who knows what's going to happen. Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:49:32</time>
And we get to see, yeah, we.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:49:33</time>
See him in Mexico.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:49:34</time>
You just wait.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:49:35</time>
You just.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:49:36</time>
Mexico is the least problems, man.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:49:42</time>
And so for, for the, the Mexico war, I mean, was kind of what they were portraying down there, was that relatively accurate as far as, like, what's happening and all that stuff? I mean, I would assume that it is because everything that we've seen, at least thus far, is they've been trying to maintain historical accuracy.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:49:59</time>
Well, you get to see a lot of good stunts. I will say the stuntmen really were like, this is our moment before we get to the Civil War stuff. Right.

They're flipping over things into, yeah, flipping into the water.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:50:10</time>
Right.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:50:11</time>
Patrick Swayze's acting, he's doing, I think he's doing pretty good. Like I'm, I'm with Patrick Swayze on this. He's doing a good job. Like, he's pulling me through. He's definitely by this time his love is remarried.

He's still so in love with her. And there's like, he's so forlorn that he, he all in on being the first one out there.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:50:31</time>
Death wish.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:50:31</time>
He's got a death wish. So they really do a good job of showing that. Right. Like I'm going, I'll be the first one because he'd rather die.

And you know, you get to see the graphicness of his leg wound, which we meet Robert Mitchum, then he plays the doctor who could amputate his leg, decides not to. So we get to allude to all of this amputation that's going to start happening at this time. This is how doctors are going to alleviate any wounds.

So they don't get gangrene, they just cut him off. But they tell Patrick Swayc to. He's just going to take forever to recover. He won't be able to use the leg. But, but we won't take the leg.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:51:07</time>
And so in the book he loses his arm.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:51:12</time>
Okay.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:51:13</time>
And by the way, the producer of Roots and North and south is David Walper.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:51:18</time>
Walper. Same person.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:51:20</time>
Same person.

And they decided that this was the only thing that they, that John, Jake and them had an argument about was they decided that we're not going to have him lose his arm because I, you know, then I'm going to have this 12 hour miniseries where 10 of the hours he's walking around with his arm behind his back and everybody in the audience is going, where do they put his arm? Where do they put his? And they're going to be distracted by that.

So we'll give him a leg wound that he can't heal from, you know, and that'll plague him the rest of his days.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:51:54</time>
Yeah. But I will say. So Patrick Swayze. So she got married to the other man because her father had Patrick Swayze's love.

The girl he found who overturned on in the wagon, she's from New Orleans. They really allude to that. With her enslaved woman who, who speaks in that kind of Jamaican tongue. Yeah, the Creole, this Creole kind of connection.

So she marries a man her father had kind of put in place for her that was well to do. He's very abusive and not a nice guy. Not nice to her. And so she feels very trapped in her marriage. Patrick Swayze, can't forget her.

And it's so hilarious. She's like, you must forget me. I can't forget you. Don't forget me. Oh, I'm gonna try to forget you.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:52:38</time>
Meeting up at the abandoned.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:52:40</time>
Don't forget me. It's like you two don't know what the heck is going on here. Right.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:52:45</time>
So they're like, they're the same age. Ori and Madeline Lamott, played by David Carradine is an old man or middle aged man. Okay.

But he's a good Choice, as arranged by the father, like you said.

And Ori's off at West Point in the war and the letters get intercepted and so she goes off and marries him because she thought Laura Ori had stopped writing her, just like he thought the same about her. So.

But because of the same age and because they're truly in love with each other, they plan to meet at this old burnt out church because you know, they're just laying around everywhere and you're.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:53:32</time>
Like right up in a cape, he's looking.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:53:34</time>
All.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:53:38</time>
Right.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:53:41</time>
So they go in the meet at the church and you know, they do it like it's like their place, you know? And I forget what they say in the first one. It might be this time where she says, let's see, here's what I wrote in my notes.

Ori finds Madeline at the church. So I guess they must have met or planned to meet. I might miss that. Madeline says she's there to tell him they can no longer see each other.

Just like the guys on To Catch a Predator. Ori ain't buying it. Just like Chris Hansen, they kiss. They can't.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:54:22</time>
They're kissing us. So I have to say they're kissing us the most awkward.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:54:25</time>
It was a little awkward.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:54:27</time>
Okay. I noticed this too, because you, you used to not kiss with tongue in Hollywood. Okay. I think 80s they started flirting with it.

The problem was they stopped. They, you can see their tongues coming, but they don't actually go into the other person's mouth.

They just lick the inside of their own lips with them. And it's this weird, it's this weird. Like, like it was, it was, it was so awkward.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:54:58</time>
I was like, I don't care that.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:55:00</time>
It'S too, it's ugly and stupid and gross. Like. Yeah, yeah. So she said they kiss, but she stops him and she leaves and she says, forget me, Ori, it's the only way.

And Georgian Ori argue over slavery again.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:55:20</time>
Yes. But it's like she's like, don't forget me, I can't stop thinking about him.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:55:24</time>
Well, and she give him this note.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:55:25</time>
I have to see him.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:55:26</time>
And I even told Jen from the very beginning, she has that very soap opera look. And Jen was like, well, she actually was in a soap opera later on in her career, right. She, she was on for Bold and the Beautiful.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:55:38</time>
Ah, okay.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:55:38</time>
A long time.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:55:39</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:55:39</time>
So, so she has that look, right. If you're listening to this podcast, like she, she's got that very classic 80s soap opera, beautiful woman, beautiful look.

And so that this is kind of Again, one of the constant through lines is not only if there's is this love story between Ori and her, but as long as you know everything else that's happening. And then when George finally meets, you know, his first love interest, his first true love interest.

Because when you first meet George in New York, he's got two girls, one in each arm and he's kissing each girl before he jumps out and goes, you know, fights with Ori for the New York street gang. And then fast forward a few years.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:56:17</time>
He has the hooker set up too, at West Point.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:56:20</time>
Yeah, that's right.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:56:20</time>
He knows.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:56:23</time>
Doing the laundry, so.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:56:25</time>
Laundry, yes.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:56:26</time>
Yeah, yeah, she does the laundry for everybody around here. But fast forward, they're finally in, in Mexico.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:56:34</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:56:35</time>
And then he meets Robert Mitchum. He's there with his daughter and his, his daughter is there.

Like they meet her at a dance and it's one of those things, he sees her across the dance floor, he doesn't want to be there because Ori's all down in the dumps and just, you can tell he's just in a really bad spot because he's injured and been bedridden for six months. Yeah.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:56:54</time>
And his lady is married to someone else.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:56:56</time>
Married to someone else. Leg.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:56:59</time>
And then he's the worst feeling in the world.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:57:03</time>
Oh, heartbreak.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:57:04</time>
Well, not heartbreak, but losing someone to someone else. Oh yeah, like that is the worst feeling because you, you can't, you can't see them the same way.

And it's hard to imagine this person you love who you thought loved you back, can give that to somebody else. So like that whole time with Orey, I'm like, God, man, I, because I've been in more issues in that situation more times than not in my lifetime.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:57:32</time>
And so she doesn't want to be with her husband either. Right. So it's, that's worse. Right. It's not like she's happy, she's like, I'm miserable. I was like, girl, you should just be with, with Ori.

Like, what does it matter? Like be with or at that time on the side. And even if you got pregnant, you'd be like, well, I got pregnant with my husband. Like, what the heck?

Like, you know, like, I know, here I am. Morals.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:57:57</time>
I, I, so I actually I, I commented to Jen, so I, I comment to Jen, when George started, they started sewing scenes with him. And, and I forget Constant Flynn. Constance. Yes, with, with Constance.

And I was like, Jen, I was like, I think she's way more beautiful than, you know, or Ori's girl. And I. I kind of asked her. I was like, hey, did anything else happen with these two?

Because these are like the actors playing, you know, George Hazard and Constance. I mean, they are both good. Look, that's a good looking couple right there.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:58:29</time>
Wendy Kilborn, they actually got married in.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:58:31</time>
Real life, so, yeah. So I.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:58:32</time>
So they got married in 88. So three years after this, they got married. They're still married today. They have three kids.

So they probably remember this miniseries as where we met.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:58:42</time>
This is how mom and dad met.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:58:43</time>
And fell in love.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:58:44</time>
You know, I didn't know that. But the other Hazard brother, Stanley. The guy from Star Trek.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:58:50</time>
Yeah, Number two.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:58:51</time>
Oh, yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:58:52</time>
He married the girl who plays Ori's little blonde sister. Not the child, the. The adult who plays.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>00:59:02</time>
He marries. Lots of love happening. So I will say when. When George and Constance kiss, you can tell they really do love each other. Their kisses are real.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>00:59:12</time>
Like, theirs was a little less awkward, but I loved. I wrote down one line that he. That he said to her when he was doing the whole proposal, right. He's kind of stumbling through it.

She's like, is this a proposal? He said, you know, yes, you know, essentially, will you marry me? And then she. They kind of have the back and forth.

And when she finally tells him, she's like, you know, I. I fell in love with you, you know, that first night on the dance floor. And I loved his line. Just made me laugh. He goes, was it my face or the uniform? I just love the bowl. Just like, cockiness. That was awesome. That's a.

That's a great writer line right there.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>00:59:44</time>
Yeah, it was. But she. But doesn't she say to him. It was the look on your face when the other officer cut in. Yeah, yeah, right. It was.

That was the moment where she knew. Yeah, that's. And. And that's. I. All that stuff is very relatable, especially when you're young.

Like, it reminds you of when you were young and falling in love and how all new and fresh and innocent it was and. And how nice it is. And I think they did a good job, you know, all the actors playing that, except for when Patrick Swayze and what's her Face kiss.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:00:14</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:00:16</time>
But, you know, as a little boy watching this, I had a crush on every one of the women but Madeline above all now as an adult. Kirsti Alley's the Fox. No, as an adult, it's Constance who is the more attractive one, because she is attainable.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:00:45</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:00:46</time>
Madeline is not attainable.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:00:49</time>
Yeah, yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:00:50</time>
Patrick Swayze. Patrick Swayze. Can't even get her.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:00:57</time>
That's how, you know, someone's unattainable.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:00:59</time>
So I'm gonna be able to get Madeline. But Constance is a down to earth Irish Catholic girl. Yeah, right. And has a good father, Robert Mitchum.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:01:10</time>
Who'S going back to the I, the famine rebellion in Ireland. He's like, I'm going back to Ireland. It's 1848. And this is when the, the famine rebellion's happening. So again, they're adhering to history still.

So I thought that was cool.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:01:23</time>
Yeah, yeah, it was good. And one of the other things that I liked about some other time there in Mexico was they made a reference to, to Double Day.

So I don't know if you caught that with the baseball.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:01:35</time>
Okay, go ahead.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:01:36</time>
We wrote that. Yeah. So we, we wrote that down because they were walking.

When he finally gets Ori up out of bed and they're kind of walking around and they're, that's one of the things they're talking about to each other. They say, like, do you think this, this game that Doubleday, you know, created is ever going to take, take hold?

And you see these guys playing some like stickball version of baseball. And for those who don't know, you know, double, you know, Abner Double Day is allegedly, you know, created baseball. Now that's not, not true.

It's not necessarily true, but we've been to his grave, right? So that Double Day is actually buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:02:10</time>
And there's lots of baseballs.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:02:12</time>
There's always baseballs in front grave. And it was, it was really cool to, to see that and then to see this reference here.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:02:18</time>
Well, so I, I, I knew that because we did a show on baseball in the Civil War and, and we talked about, we set the record straight on that, but I couldn't remember the details because I didn't host it. I let somebody else host it because I find sports to be completely boring. And so I fell asleep in the back while they did the show.

So I had to look it up. He did not.

As you point out, it was a story created for the Baseball hall of Fame in 1907 by the Mills Commission, which sought to establish Doubleday as a, as a, I'm sorry, starts to establish baseball as a purely American sport.

And how more American could it be than, you know, it comes out of the United States army or became a marketing ploy to promote the hall of Fame again.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:03:02</time>
I appreciated that as part of them kind of just dropping these fun historical facts that people can latch on to.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:03:10</time>
We did notice that the flag, the American flag at the dance party, the dance in the, the Mexican gala that he goes to, it's a 48 star flag.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:03:20</time>
Oh, is it?
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:03:22</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:03:22</time>
And so we're like, come on, guys. Well, you, the, the West Point uniforms before.

And I, I, I googled, you know, how accurate are the uniforms in north and south, and it said that it's a pretty good mix. Yeah. And they have pointed out the West Point uniforms as being pretty damn close.

Like probably out of all the uniforms depicted, that's the closest one.

And then he said, but as we get to the Civil War, it's more Hollywood costuming versions of the uniforms because they're always neat and clean and, you know, no holes.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:04:02</time>
They're not dirty.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:04:04</time>
Not dirty, but they're rolling around in the dirt and you know, all that. And, and as you'll find out as we get into further episodes, Patrick Swayze's hair is always quaffed. No matter what.

He's rough and tumbling, getting in fights and everything. He gets up and his hair is still perfect. He's like, oh, but his hair is staying in shape.

And it's, yeah, it's, it's very lucky to have a head of hair like that. But so, okay, so still in Mexico, George resigns his commission.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:04:36</time>
Yes, that's right.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:04:38</time>
And then he goes to Alcana Bent, who's a captain, and it was his order that got Ori's leg all messed up.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:04:47</time>
Yep.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:04:48</time>
And he goes as a civilian to Alcana Ben, who's horn around with a couple of girls. And, and Ben is like, you are disgusting, sir. And you're not even in uniform.

And he's like, I'm glad you noticed because now I can give you one of these. And he punches him and they get into a big fight and he says, if you ever come after me or my friend Ori Main again, I will kill you.

Or something like that.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:05:15</time>
Yeah, yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:05:16</time>
And, and then that is the end of Alcana Bent.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:05:22</time>
Well, we loved, or is it, we loved how they went for it, fighting. And the town just kind of stood around and watched. It was kind of like, this is our entertainment. This happens all the time.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:05:35</time>
That's what they do today.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:05:42</time>
I enjoyed these, these two episodes.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:05:45</time>
They do a lot of good foreshadowing. It is like you said, it's soap opera esque. It's dramatic acting. I do think Patrick Swayze's acting is very good in it.

I do think other people are a little cheesier, but I am enjoying it.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:06:00</time>
Yeah. I think Swayze and James Reed as the leads are very good.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:06:08</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:06:10</time>
It's believable. Even when they have to deliver a corny, romantic, mushy line. You know, I can accept it.

But Patrick Swayze in particular, though, because he's, you know, he's more of a hothead than George is. And. But in. In many ways, he's like, when. When what I. What I think he does really well is when he's lovesick about Madeline, he's like a little boy.

Like, he reminds me of a little boy. Yeah. And he kind of is almost whiny in some ways, you know, except.

Except when he's wounded and they're walking around and he's wounded and heartsick. And George is like, you know, because he says, oh, you know, this leg, which will never get better. And he goes, but it won't get worse, Ori.

And he's just, thank you for that comforting, you know, whatever. And there he. See, and then he's drinking straight whiskey, and George is like, I've never seen you drink straight whiskey before.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:07:09</time>
Yeah, I. I did, like. And you had mentioned this to kind of tie this back to something you said in the very beginning.

Them showing kind of how these two men who are truly close, like practically brothers, and George goes up there and says, you know, I kind of was able to pull him out of this depression that he's in and say, hey, you know, I want you to stand next to me. I want you to be my best man. And. And you can see. And that's. I. That's what I thought. Patrick Swayze did a great job acting, too.

You can see the external expression on his face. And you can see it. He finally smiles, probably for the first time in six to nine months. Right. He says, I would love to stand next to you.

And I really like that because that is exactly what a best friend would do. That is exactly what you would expect. And that's exactly what you hoped, right? As. As the watcher is me. Fresh eyes. And so that just.

That moment just really was heartwarming to me and made me smile. And then you see him kind of come. Come back out of this dark, deep hole that. That Ori Maine's been in. And he kind of finally becomes.

Starts becoming himself a little bit again after that. And that I thought was really cool, showing that. That true closeness of. Of the two brothers, really.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:08:22</time>
And genuinely happy for his friend. Like, you know, I've.

I've only been genuinely happy for other people a handful of times in my life, like, to the point Like I've always been like, oh, that's good for you. And you know, like, I've always done that, but where I'm like elated for somebody else handful of times.

And it is probably the best feeling that you could have to be happy, like truly happy for somebody else because it's, it's like a totally selfless. And it proved to me that I'm not as selfish as I think I am.

I was able to do that for other people, you know, and like involuntarily, like, it just came over me and it was a nice feeling. And so. Yeah, you're right. And it's funny because I just rewatched episode two, like from the halfway mark. I watched rewatch that today as well.

And at that part I had the same feelings and thoughts that you had, Scott, because you're right. First of all, it's two things a best friend would do. Come like travel that distance to pull you out of your slump.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:09:40</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:09:41</time>
Because he knows better of you. He knows that you're better than that and he knows that you're wasting a lot of great things. And then in turn, Patrick Swayze get.

Can get out of his funk because a good thing is happening for his to, to his friend and his friend wants him to be right there with him. That, that is a, that is a good two way street right there.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:10:06</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:10:07</time>
Which the later parts all the more heartbreaking when. Oh yeah, I, I know.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:10:13</time>
Here we go.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:10:13</time>
They're set me up for the fall. I'm like, oh no, this is so. I feel so good right now. Please.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:10:18</time>
Yeah. So here we are. I think we're at the end of episode two. We're about 10 years before the civil war. Right.

So everyone's kind of coupling up and having children. They're going to get kind of a little bit older and mature. Right.

But they're going to be seasoned, you know, military men who are going to be experienced men now. Probably going to be fathers at some point. Right. And now civil war is going to set in. Right.

So this is, I love that it's these two men and I, I can't wait to see where the story takes us so.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:10:52</time>
Well, you know, it's, it's. We keep kind of making fun of the, the, the romance of it and the, the melodrama between the, the main characters and the women.

Well, all the, all the men and women, you know, because there's more than two relationships going on. But it also is a bromance film.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:11:14</time>
It's a bromance.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:11:14</time>
Oh, yeah, like, you know, these, these guys. And you'll see later in the war this isn't going to be a big spoiler.

But, you know, there is a point in the war where they happen upon each other and they have like a truce type of a catch up session, you know, and you can feel the sorrow when they have to go back to the lines and you know, but, and I think, you know, we all, I mean, not as extreme as civil war, but we all have relationships and sometimes life takes us in different paths and we don't, we're not necessarily adversaries or enemies, but we don't talk anymore. But there's that unexpected meeting with each other where it's like you just picked up from yesterday.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:12:09</time>
Oh, yeah.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:12:10</time>
And, and we've all got friends like that. Maybe more than one. And, and I think so. That's, that's why I say like, you know, probably everybody could have enjoyed that back in 1985.

The Women for all the heaving bosoms and the dresses and the men for the heaving bosoms. Yeah. But also the women for the ro and the men for the bromance. Because I guarantee most men. Scott, you probably were doing this too. I know I do it.

I think of my best friend when I'm watching that and would I be able to be on opposing sides of a war against my best friend?
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:12:51</time>
I think that's fantastic. Foreshadowing for us and our next two episodes.

For those watching and listening, if you guys enjoyed our conversation, our take on this, we are going to do the next two episodes. So if you've watched this and these videos are already out, trust me, I'm going to link the next video here at the end of this one.

Stay tuned with us to hear a little bit more about what happens next in north and south in episodes three and four of this miniseries. So, Matt, thank you again for joining us today.

And for those watching and listening, stay tuned for the next episode because it's going to be a fun one.
<cite>Jenn</cite>
<time>01:13:23</time>
Yeah, I hope you're inspired to call your bromance or call your loved ones for this Valentine's Day. I hope we inspired you with all the love that is being felt in these first few.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:13:35</time>
All right, well, for those, those listening, we'll talk to you guys next time.
<cite>Matt</cite>
<time>01:13:38</time>
Thank you for having me.
<cite>Scott</cite>
<time>01:13:48</time>
This has been a walk with History Production Chocolate History is great. Created and hosted by me, Scott Benny. Episode researched by Jennifer Benny.

Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode. Talk with History is supported by our [email protected] our eternal thanks go out to our lifetime members to help keep us going.

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